The challenge...Is war imminent ?
DavidGive us a topic,David, and we'll issue a challenge to those who watch.....That is the closing statement of Lady Griffin's post in a recent thread....So with the world, or at least Britain and the USA, on the brink of invading Iraq, with both our servicemen and women in harms way, surely the vast majority of readers have some opinion on this subject. I think we have all prayed for a peaceful outcome to this situation, but as of right now, it seems we are destined for more bloodshed. God Bless All of Our Troops.
MartinListening to the news on the radio on my way home from work, it seems that the talking has ended. Tony Blair has given up trying to get Un approval and has confirmed that action will take place unless there is a turn around from Saddam, which is very unlikely. What would happen if we didn't go into Iraq, would Saddam stay in power for a few more years, long enough to build an atomic bomb? It looks like we may never know the answer to that question. The powers that be aren't expecting the war to last longer than a couple of weeks (if that). My main concern, if war does start, is the reaction of other countries in that area. Some of them will welcome this action, even if they aren't saying so. Others might see it as bullying. We will just have to hope that it all calms down sooner rather than later.
rocketmanjohnLets hope there is a minimum of casualties on all sides. One could say that there are no winners in war only losers. Hussain could still claim a moral victory by standing down. Whatever, this dictator will go, one way or another. This sounds awful, but there is'nt much point having huge, offensive forces and not using them. All the so called western powers could just have defensive missile systems and let the rest of the world do what it wants while we save a fortune. Is this morally right? Or do we all [and I do mean all] have a collective responsibility to try and maintain world peace, I don't think we can sit on the fence and hope the problem will go away. This is what has been happening for the last 12 years, and it's not gone away. What will happen if, and when, stockpiles of chemical, biological and what ever other nasties, are uncovered. Will the UN then agree that something should have been done? John
Falcon_505this is the first course of military action i have been grown up enough to properly respond to that i am not in full support of. usually i feel that whatever we, be it through NATO, solely with the americans or by the uk alone, is justified but not here. my concerns are not with civillian casualties because i do feel that we will prosecute the conflict in as effective and "cleanest" way possible, I've always believed that but we are often treated to an opponent's propaganda on the subject. i am worried most about the threat we will face in the war's afetrmath. This is a dubious theatre to prosecute a war on terror but having said that, for every iraqi soldier killed there is a mum, a dad and the rest of the family left behind - and these people won't like the west any more than they already don't for killing off their beloved. in turn, we only create more anti-west feeling and a leaning towards (if not the full participation with) extremist movements. that said, whenever conflict does begin, i support our lads and girls 100% to the end. how awful it must feel for a soldier in harms way to know that people back home are disconnecting themselves. Marc, 19, Bolton.
LDunlop76Well, I can't see Saddam taking himself off into exile, so it looks like US troops are going in, no matter what. As I type, the UK parliament are still debating whether to agree to send in UK troops. How big will the govt rebellion be this time? From what I glean from the radio, those in the know reckon the Iraqi army will largely capitulate as soon as our invasion forces arrive. I hope the commentators are correct in their theories. What worries me more, like Marc, is the aftermath. The islamic world doesn't seem overly fond of the US. If the US invade Iraq without UN backing, then I think we will see an escalation in acts of terrorism. I can see things spiralling and the world will be a more dangerous place.
William RLinda, Like you, I`m posting this as the big debate is going on in Parliament and wondering what the outcome will be. I think back to the 1940`s when WE were producing weapons of destruction,when our sentiments were that these tanks, bombs, shells were all going to shorten the war by killing people. The delight when the first atom bombs were dropped on Japan, to see the mass destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we were showing "them" what we could do.We didn`t think of the victims, our only thought was that we were going to win, we were going to have things our way, I was in India when the country was gaining Independence, when the native said his hour had come, when the white man was trash, we did not belong there, the wheel was making its circle. In my closing years I look back and think, "Please do better than we did, we tried our best, but it wasn`t good enough" We are only custodians of this earth, for future generations, we would do well to remember that one day, we will be judged for our actions. Hope that`s not too sombre, Cheerio, Bill.
anacortesdampThis evening has been very interesting. We live about 10 miles from the US Naval Air Station Whidbey, which is home to the entire USN fleet of EA-6B Prowler squadrons. Most of them are away, including the young man who lives next door and who's a Prowler driver. There are a couple of training airplanes that stay local, even when the rest of them are on assignment. They were very visible/audible all day today, but after Bush's announcement that the balloon had gone up, we heard them begin overflights that are still going around the patch at 22:15 local. At one point our cable TV went off the air for about 10 seconds, presumably due to "countermeasures". May we live in interesting times! Frank Damp Anacortes, WA, USA
edmurfin(written before the war started but worth reading) Hi It's not a thought i enjoy harbouring, and enjoy setting it out in black and white even less, but, there may be - NOW - no peaceful alternative to war as a means of speedily containing Saddam, only "less unpeaceful" means, that may still have a damaging effect on people there, but less immediately damaging than outright war.. . From the start I felt that the imposition of sanctions post GulfWar was wrong. I recognised what many recognised, that is, Saddam, and his entourage and power apparat, would be mainly unaffected and that only his people would suffer. The Allies knew this too, but, sharing the modern “bunker-safe” mentality of Saddam, unlikely, like him, to suffer the deprivations of material shortages, and in their own way as indifferent to the fate of ordinary people - especially the ordinary people of hostile nations - as he, they felt it was a strategy that might work. The days when leaders were at the van of their armies are long gone. Remote from the blood, guts, eviscerations, emptied bowels, shattered bones, and all the sordid, squalid horrors of combat. they have become innured to suffering in others, and contemplate the death of millions with an equanimity more appropriate to the ancient Gods of primordial savages. Their mental attitude is not dissimilar to that of those Nazi soldiers tasked with liquidating Polish Jews in Kracow. Just a job, people are not people, but numbers on one side or the other of a balance sheet detailing the riches of power and egoistic ambition. Lifting all sanctions now , for instance, is being mooted as a possible peaceful alternative to war. It is indeed, but will not inhibit Saddam's inferentially discerned ambitions, and could well help him speed up and expand his re-arming programme, but, his people might gain some benefit from lifted sanctions. They will continue as a subject people, still oppressed/highly controlled as they are now, but at least, possibly, healthier and more sanguine - those of them not at immediate risk of Saddam's haphazard culling and eugenic notions - and, maybe, better able, over time, to mount opposition that might lead to Saddam being ousted. That is only a possibility. The probability that it would succeed in containing Saddam is not readily calculable. Harm to people will continue to be done by Saddam's apparat, reinvigorated by injections of resources made available by lifting of sanctions and increased oil revenues meanwhile, though, arguably, less immediate harm than will arise from a war against him and his people now. The longer term harm resulting from lifting of sanctions could, possibly, be even greater than the immediate harm of a war now. How long will Saddam live? How much harm will greater ability to wreak havoc on his own people cause and - if the inferentially derived ambitions he is said to cherish are true - cause to adjacent peoples? The time for peaceful action may have expired. The possibility that Saddam would one day represent a threat to his people and his neighbours and, maybe, the world, was apparent 20 years ago, when he was building up and strengthening his power base in Iraq. Then, perhaps, was the time to have infiltrated his still growing organisation - and arranged an assassination ( of itself, not "peaceful" and potentially very unpeaceful if such an assassination was not in Iraq universally approved). It was, however, convenient to support him, arm him and make it possible, one day, for him to develop WMD. Supporting him then may have been seen as a way to stave off the perceived threat of Fundamentalist Islam following the deposing of the Shah - a reasonable proposition, one supposes - especially now, when Islamic terrorism is so much to be feared, though it is difficult to see how, even though Iran were utterly defeated, that would have prevented the arising of organisations like Al Quaeda, dedicated to gaining redress of grievance against nations of the more developed world (it's not the only one) - indeed, it's possible the surviving vanquished Iran might have regrouped and formed a terrorist organisation the size and like of which the world can only envisage in apocalyptic nightmares... for if the conclusion of that war had been outright victory for Saddam, what might have happened afterwards? A ferocious combining of outraged Muslim countries to avenge the Iranian defeat? An even larger. multinational terrorist organisation, determined to punish those who supported Saddam against their comrade country? Once his apparat was fully grown, his bunkers built, his personal protection army established, it became impossible to eliminate him in stealthy fashion. Ordinary people, seeing no hard evidence that Saddam possesses WMD, rightly feel that a war against him and his people cannot be justified on those grounds of possession based on "evidence" so far revealed. They are right, in my view. However, for political reasons, the actual hard evidence may not be advanced by the countries urging that war until it becomes possible for them to present it shorn of material source identification and dissociated from their own countries culpability in the supply. Hence, possibly, the seemingly desperate and inept presumptive and assumptive attempts to present "evidence" of possession, intent to use, and connection to Al Quaeda. . Those countries, which in past times supplied Saddam with actual weapons, and the means to manufacture his own, must be aware of the disparities in what has been identified and disabled by the Inspectorate, and what was earlier supplied and earlier made possible to exist, but fear in the revelation, some unwanted consequences - either to their country, or other countries, or to the political reputation and credibility of leaders - and the, possibly, damaging effects on their ability to remain such.. .I feel there is rather more altruism in political life than our cynical observations of politics and politicians renders likely-seeming to us, but there's no doubt that egoistic concerns DO play an important role in the decision-making processes. Bush, Blair, and even those leaders of countries presently opposed to war, cannot justify such a war by openly confessing that the actions of their countries rendered the likelihood of such a war being one day necessary, to contain an inferred threat to world peace. Nor can they openly confess that it is the past actions of their countries which have led to the growing sense of grievance in many parts of the world, not just in the world of Islam, and now exploited by Fundamentalists and others to justify terrorist activities. At this late stage war may be, regrettably, the only SURE way to contain Saddam NOW and the potential threat it is inferred he represents. If efficiently engaged it will, literally, simply remove him - and many 10,000's of his people. It will not contain the threat of a world war. It will not contain the threat posed by many other countries ruled by despots. It will not much inhibit the greed and selfishness inherent to the sale of arms by one country to another. It will not much inhibit terrorism arising from grievance. It will not be a war to end wars. It will be only the latest expression of the aeons long cycle of cause becoming effect becoming cause - ad infinitum -until nations decide, co-operatively, that war ought not to be the preferred problem-solving option, and thereafter set about devising ways to eliminate the fear that lies at the heart of all conflict, micro or macro. - bottle fights after the disco, or depleted uranium shells in the desert. There IS one peaceful alternative. NOT some restricting "miracle" from a worried deity. NOT some notional "healing love impulse" from collective prayer and supplication to said deity. NOT some notionally transmissable and directable "energy of positive thoughts" - though positive prayers and positive thinking by large numbers opposed to war - as in the demonstration about which you appear so scathing - can do no harm and given the large numbers involved - half a million? - certainly present our leaders with a powerful indication of public feeling against war - those same leaders are happy to plan entire election campaigns based on the statistical significance of a few opinion polls involving around a mere 1000.person sample cross section - is it unreasonable of demonstrators to think that a sample of 500 times that number will be effective in persuading leader to rethink their strategy? I think not, and so applaud the effort being put to demonstrating public opinion that way. This peaceful alternative will not appear - by fault of the intrinsic nature of those from whom it is called upon to be exercised. Put simply - it requires every "first world" country which has ever - or continues to - exploit another for gain, and has not, and/or continues not, to make proper recompense - to the past and continuing disadvantage of the countries so exploited - to stand up, admit their culpability without reserve or cavil, and invite those aggrieved to tell them how they may best make such recompense - and furthermore, resolve to make recompense in full, immediately, and in perpetuity, or as long as remedial action is necessary to render the aggrieved content. It's a very improbable proposition, and even if it became probable, i doubt it would resolve the present crisis. There is a hysteresis in human affairs - wars and terrorism would continue for quite a while after such an announcement - the loss of trust by centuries of war and exploitation will take, maybe, centuries to restore. We all want answers in the NOW, where we can see the results. That's not a criticism, BTW - it seems just to be the way we are. All this is conjecture - more or less reasonable according to my ability to reason by inference. In other words, just opinions. I'd love to be wrong - i hope there are those in power even now earnestly seeking alternatives to war with Iraq. I may see none of immediate value, but that's just an opinion - hope and wishing obliges me to think that a greater effort to find an alternative is justified to avoid a war - the consequences of which can be inferred with a high degree of probability attaching. More time is needed, and Anan is right to insist that no action be taken without observing the UN constraints on such action. I wish he'd go further and attempt to persuade the wouldbe warriors to keep looking. The haste being shown to engage is both unseemly and unwise, i think. We may be worried prematurely at this point. A further report from the Inspectorate is due in a few days. Pray to whatever deities you adore that we may be pleasantly surprised. Cheers Ed
LDunlop76Hello, Ed, nice to see your thoughtful prose gracing this forum again. But now we are at war..... and if it comes down to street fighting in Basrah and Baghdad, it will be drawn out and messy. Already the Iraqis have used civilians as shields whilst they snipe at coalition troops. The radio said yesterday that if the war goes on more than a month, then taxes will have to increase to pay for it. I can see home support for Blair shrinking fast once that happens. I find the whole sorry situation very saddening.....
Leyland Lancashire UK