| What kind of society have we become. |
| noel | Drugs, gangs of hooligans terrorising peace loving people on housing estates. People scared to defend their homes against burglars incase they are sued for distressing them.
My wife went back to our son's first school last night, St.James' it used to be a rural area friendly, now the school is circled with barbed wire, thanks no doubt to some of the people who have been brought into the area from overspills. This morning we were hearing about a 11 year old boy who comitted suicide because of school bullies. What have we become, and how can we correct it? I'm not certain that policing in a helicopter keeps drugs off the streets, maybe a lot more bobbies on the beat would.
Militant Muslim Clerics probably getting state hand-outs preaching hatred of all things British.
I just feel so negative about the way Britain has gone in the last 30 years . Help me feel positive someone. Tell me Britain is a wonderful place to live in and I've got it wrong.
|
| William R | Noel, me old mate, When I started reading your post I thought you`d been on a visit to Barnsley, and not looked me up.I agree with what you say, and apart from going ranting and raving round towm, there`s not al lot you can do.If you try to make a change here, you are at risk of finding someone putting something nasty through you letter box which warms the whole house up. So we grin and bear it and go tut tut.Reading your second post, points me in the right direction, I think. Cheerio. William R. |
| noel | quote:
Originally posted by William R
Noel, me old mate, When I started reading your post I thought you`d been on a visit to Barnsley, and not looked me up.I agree with what you say, and apart from going ranting and raving round towm, there`s not al lot you can do.If you try to make a change here, you are at risk of finding someone putting something nasty through you letter box which warms the whole house up. So we grin and bear it and go tut tut.Reading your second post, points me in the right direction, I think. Cheerio. William R.
I don'tthink we should grin and bear it Bill.
I'm just glad that I for one live in a respectable neighbourhood.
Just check this article out I copied from last night's LEP.
There are CCTV cameras on almost every street corner in Fishwick – but the atmosphere is still uneasy.
================================================
Families are running the gauntlet every day as gangs of yobs like Mark Fitzgerald make their lives a misery.
The police spent four months investigating the reasons for the estate's problems and that landed "midget" Mark Fitzgerald before magistrates.
Today many of his victims, too scared to be named or quoted directly, told how Fitzgerald was a symbol of growing racial unrest on the estate.
Residents saw the Evening Post report on Fitzgerald's anti social behaviour order and were delighted.
One Asian man, whose identity we have agreed to protect for his family's sake, spoke of the problems caused by Fitzgerald and others like him.
The young father said: "It's awful where I live.
"We get called racist names and spat at. They call me "Paki b******" and things like that.
"One man I know had eggs thrown at him as he walked to the mosque.
"I have to say I have lived here for 30 years and I get on with everybody. It's not me they target in particular, it's everybody.
"They all go for the older people or those much younger because they won't answer back.
"I would say a couple of times a week I am exposed to racism."
He spoke of the abuse families faced on their way to the mosque and while they were inside.
"While we are praying in the mosque people come and open the door.
"You see we can't lock it because people are always coming in to pray, and they shout racial abuse while we are praying.
"It's not just the older youths, it's 12 or 13-year-olds, including girls. Don't get me wrong, there are bad lads in the Asian community too."
The man said his wife was now too terrified to leave the house.
He recalled one incident where she was in the kitchen and one of the gang of yobs climbed on to their roof. The man said the youth had even entered their house while his wife was inside.
He said: "People don't want to get involved in case it causes more trouble in the community or for their particular family. My neighbours talk to me about it.
"Local people are scared of course they are. I'm pretty healthy and I can look after myself on a one-to-one basis but if there were three or four ganging up on you there's nothing you can do."
He spoke of his young boys and how he had stopped them from playing in the streets.
He said: "If my children are playing outside they get moved on by youths saying, 'you can't play here'.
"On one occasion my son was playing outside and he was pushed by a lad and told to move on."
The man hopes that life will improve for the community now ASBOs are being brought in.
He said: "We need more police, just checking on things like when the lads are hanging on street corners.
"I would like to see more foot patrols from police. I want somebody to go to the community and speak with them."
Another resident, a young mum, described how she had been struck by footballs and spat at by the youths.
Her family has started driving the few hundred metres to the mosque because they are too scared to walk.
But there is hope for Fishwick and communities like them in Preston.
Just two days after the ASBO, families say they have noticed a difference. The estate is quieter.
Police have have been inundated with inquiries from people asking how to get ASBOs imposed on troublemakers in their areas.
PC Dave Johnson, who led the Fitzgerald investigation said: "I think it will encourage other people to report crimes to the police because they can now see something positive has been done.
"I think it will send out a warning message that that sort of behaviour will not be tolerated. We will actively pursue people committing racist crime and they will be dealt with accordingly."
Muslim leaders in Preston welcome the use of ASBOs – but only as a last resort.
Chairman of the Lancashire Council of Mosques, Ibby Master, said: "It's unfortunate that it's actually got to this stage where this order had to be put on him.
"It must have been a last resort from the magistrates' point of view and I hope the person learns from this.
"But I welcome the court's decision on this simply because racism is something nobody has to tolerate.
"We are a multi-cultural society where diversity is accepted and if people are not able to accept that they need some education and hopefully this order will educate him.
"Hopefully he will behave in a more acceptable manner. I am sure it has been done as a last resort. Some people have to be forced.
"It's sad from my point of view that this gentleman isn't able to learn and accept multi-culturalism.
"If he's putting other people's lives into misery and harassing other people racially then that is not acceptable because other people have the right to live a normal life.
"I would like people to be treated and educated in other people's cultures and what they stand for and that way it will break down barriers."
Farooq Kazi, of Preston Racial Equality Council, said: "We welcome the court's decision which is going to enhance and encourage good community relations. We must pay tribute to the police service and courts and others who worked so hard in harmony to give this strong clear message to a minority of criminals who are out there harming relations."
==================================================
Why should we let yobs like Fitzgerald ruin our way of life?
|
| LDunlop76 | Not everything is doom - I cherish the friendships I have made on this forum for instance - something we couldn't have done 30 years ago. But there is no doubt things have taken a down turn. The gap between rich and poor has widened. People feel more pressure to conform with expected levels of living - esp kids who are peer pressured into wanting logo'ed clothes, the latest mobile phones blah, blah. It creates a feeling of being owed something and for those who can't have, a resentment. Also the people who grew up in the liberalised 60's are today's parents. So we have lax standards of behaviour, lenient punishments - there's no incentive to behave well and no deterrent for behaving however you feel like behaving. It starts with little things like kids not giving up their seat on the bus to elderly passengers. There's no respect for other people's property.... for other people full stop! And if anyone complains, they face retaliation. I told off a gang of teenagers outside our house and got the house egged as a result. Luckily they seem to have grown bored of hanging out on our corner now, but it felt like running the gauntlet every time we went in or out when they were around - and this is a nice district. I don't know what the answer is, but I hope these antisocial behaviour orders begin to have some effect. |
| noel | You're right Linda not everything is doom and gloom. Having suffered depression some years ago I find myself slipping back sometimes, I'm sorry. Hearing some of the language the youngsters use is enough. I sat on a bench today outside the market hall, some young girls, 13 years old maybe sat down 10 yards away, the one sat at the end didn't seem capable of constructing a sentence without an expletive. I just think why the hell should we have to put up with it.
|
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by noel
the one sat at the end didn't seem capable of constructing a sentence without an expletive. I just think why the hell should we have to put up with it.
I blame the bleep bleeping parents![;)] |
| William R | Hi Linda, I may be very much alone here, but I blame the Americanisation of our television, with their trashy cartoon programmes directed at schoolchildren when they are getting ready to go to school. My daughters two youngest, demand that the TV is on for breakfast, the content of which is to me, undesirable. Blame the parents? Hardly, what they hear as they go to school with their "friends" makes you wish you`d let them watch TV instead. Remonstrate with the parents, then you you will hear words you did not even think about, directed at you, take any action and they tell you they know where you live. An answer? Restrict the hours of television broadcasting, get as far away from American TV as we can. And listen to the howls of dismay. We managed before TV came. Kids didn`t use obscene words, the Headmaster`s word was law, and yes, I`m in favopur corporal punishment of offenders. And to Protect Martin and the Forum, this can only be my opinion. Bill. |
| Martin | I watched a tv programme a few weeks ago and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was about a family who had to give up their mobile phones for a week. They actually made a documentary about this! This sad bunch ended up at each others throats because they couldn't text each other for just one week. I wouldn't say that the programme made me feel old though, it just brought home to me that I appreciate what I have more than a lot of people these days. |
| rocketmanjohn | Just how can American TV programmes [ and yes, they are utter garbage, I agree] cause the problems in England? My home town is about the size of Preston. No gangs, no vandalism, no race riots, no intimidation. The worst I've seen is the occasional tree wrapped with toilet paper at graduation time. I don't know anyone with burgler alarms either.
Lack of parental control and discipline is the root cause, not TV. We all used to watch cowboys, the 3 stooges etc. but that did'nt turn us into the morons we see today.
John |
| Spitfire | John, I couldn`t agree more with what you say. The root cause is parents, parents, parents - coupled with these misguided do-gooders who think that any type of punishment is wrong.
I try to keep positive about these things but when you hear young parents shouting four letter words at their young children, what hope have they (the children) got when they grow up if they think these things are the norm. It isn`t all that long ago that swearing in the street was a criminal offence!!!! |
| anacortesdamp | Perhaps the UK needs an Act of Parliament that would permit the use of force to protect one's life, home or family. In the US, an equivalent standard exists. It doesn't solve all problems, as the presence of personal firearms in many homes is as big a risk and there are areas of most big cities that aren't safe.
Another solution might be many more police on patrol and stiffer peanlties for mindless thuggery, but that would run taxes even higher.
Frank Damp |
| Hayleypink | it doesnt just happen up north - my mum works in a run down area (belvedere) and her school has a big problem with hooligons.
an 11 year old girl pulled a knife out on her cousin who also go to her school in the playground....it wasnt just a kitchen knife, it was one that could have killed someone...luckily when she pulled it out ready to strike a dinner lady was only a second away ready to confiscate it. The police were called but they said because the girl was under age there was nothing they could do. |
| noel | It's the opposite way round Frank, you're not allowed to use force against a burglar. They can sue. A farmer was recently jailed for shooting 2 burglars, killing one and injuring another. The injured one is applying for legal aid to sue the farmer for loss of earnings, and career restriction. ( Can't leg it away from a crime anymore ) say I cynically. |
| rocketmanjohn | I've heard it's not safe to walk through Leyland town centre at night, can this be true? Where are the police?
My home here really is my castle, and I can treat intruders any way I see fit. Surely this is a basic right. Just what are you supposed to do in England these days, make them a cup of tea?
John |
| anacortesdamp | That's just my point Noel. Parliament SHOULD change the law to permit people to protect their life and property, perhaps even with lethal force.
Frank |
| noel | Agreed Frank the sooner the better. We've become a nation of do gooders who seem to have got things totally the wrong way round, and John, yes it's true, there is a chance of getting mugged anywhere these days. A very slim chance I should add. I always avoid groups of youngsters. If you say anything to them odds are you'll get a string of abuse thrown at you. Remember the "good old days" when there was a handful of murders a year, now it's an everyday event. Many aren't even reported in the newspapers. |
| Martin | Here's an update on that story Noel.
quote:
War on yobs: The fightback begins
Residents fed up with marauding yobs have flooded police with inquiries following an Evening Post report.
We revealed that 17-year-old Mark "Midget" Fitzgerald – who terrorised families in the Fishwick area of Preston – received as Anti Social Behaviour Order (Asbo) banning him from a string of activities.
The thug was banned from causing alarm harassment, drinking and racially abusing residents as part of a package of conditions imposed by the court. Now people at housing estates across Preston have been contacting police find out how to put Asbos on other troublemakers across the city.
A police spokesman said: "We have been contacted by numerous people interested in Asbos."
The concept has been welcomed by community groups across the city. Just six are currently being enforced in Preston.
One of the strengths of an Asbo is that it gives strict guidelines as to how an individual must behave – and a formal procedure for police to undertake if that person fails to live by those rules.
[url]http://www.prestontoday.net/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=73&ArticleID=556217[/url] |
| William R | Some years ago, a lad in this town saved up and bought himself a motorbike. he equipped himself with a set of Leathers, and used to "go for a ride" all innocent. He went onto the car park of a famous Night Club chan and looked in through door to see what went on. The ten foot bouncer told him to go , so he grunted and turned round, to find two policemne approaching him. The bouncer said he was ejecting him as a potential trouble maker, the police arrested him for anti social behaviour in a public place and possessing an offensive weapon, a pair of gauntlet gloves with studs on them. Result, deaf magistrates, and 18 months in Hull Prison. Never in trouble before, no intent, no chance. He was a friend of my son in law, who went to visit him on as many times as he could. My point is, do the miscreants of today get the same treatment, no, because there are too many do gooders about now, so law and order has broken down. (Must watch for petrol through the door) Cheerio William R.
|
| anacortesdamp | Unfortunately, murder is commonplace in the US, and is often the result of readily accessible firearms that are used in the heat of an argument. There are also many gang versus gang murders, particularly among drug pushers. I guess that's one way of eliminating that particular sub-species.
I remember statistics some years back that the number of people killed by fellow citizens in Dade County (Florida - Miami) in one month exceeded the total killed by the IRA since the start of the troubles.
We're fortunate to live in a very quiet, peaceful, law-abiding little town. The worst things are the odd drunks or druggies beating up on family or neighbors.
Frank |
| Spitfire | I find this thread most upsetting. Simply because all of it is 100% correct. There is no doubt that the police get more job satisfaction out of prosecuting drivers who exceed the speed limit by 5 MPH, than catching the drug pushers - who are the root of most of todays evils. The saddest thing of all is the feeling of total inability that one has in being able to change anything! |
| noel | quote:
Originally posted by Spitfire
I find this thread most upsetting. Simply because all of it is 100% correct. There is no doubt that the police get more job satisfaction out of prosecuting drivers who exceed the speed limit by 5 MPH, than catching the drug pushers - who are the root of most of todays evils. The saddest thing of all is the feeling of total inability that one has in being able to change anything!
I can't remember the name of the village now Jim but police put up a sign saying something to the effect of " We have caught 1072 speeding drivers this year." Somebody sarcastically put up a sign next to it saying " And no burglars." |
| William R | Noel, this Saturday will be a good day for burglars and sneak thieves in Barnsley, its the annual Mayors Parade when every available policeman is on display, (notice I didn`t say duty), bacause they are really good at telling motorists they can`t go here or there, because its the Mayors Parade . Chaos from 10-00am to 4-00pm. I`m locking the house up and going out of town for the day. Cheerio, William R. (thats not my real name, and the details Martin has are false anyway, got to protect myself.) William R. |
| Lady Griffin | In my humble opinion the rot comes from the top-particularly do gooder politicians and the PC Brigade -not to mention the nest featherers.What sort of an example do they teach!
Here there has just been a law passed by a 'conscience' vote in Parliament 66 -65 to legalise Prostitution.Meant to license these places-so called massage parlours etc.Gives the workers protections of all sorts such as claims for rape etc.It will be impossible to police them A few days after the law passed there were machete threats in South Auckland as undesirables moved in to the area to take up the profitable trade in women.One chap even wanted to put up a notice advertising for girls in the local employment dept.He was turned down but legally he can do it and could take issue with the refusal.Just like the prisoner who broke a leg jumping off the prison roof to escape some time ago and claimed accident compensation.And got it.
Parents are not always at fault-I feel -very much luck sometimes if young ones get into the wrong company.Keep them involved in Sport or Music and cross your fingers and toes.
Several cases here of farmers who have used guns to protect their property from cannabis growers and druggies only to find themselves on the other side of the law.Usually common sense has prevailed but it does seem that the Law in an Ass.
NZ is relatively safe but not as it once was.Political Correctness has a lot to answer for.
|
| William R | Lady G, There must be an answer to this problem, at one time the cry was to send them into the forces to make men of them, the forces don`t deserve that sort of person. Send offenders to prison, not a good idea, they will become more qualified in the skills which let them down in the first instance, and avoid future detection. Some old timers will say, "What we need is a good war to bring everyone to their senses", but I don`t even that would work, the louts of today become the wide boys of tomorrow, and the parasites of the future. They may even become M.P.`s Hard work is what they need, bring back the heavy industries, where graft was graft, men were men, communities stuck together and sorted out their own layabouts. No need for the law there, a quick viait outside and a lesson learnt. From over the Pennines, Cheerio, William R.
|
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by rocketmanjohn
Where are the police?
............ I can treat intruders any way I see fit. Surely this is a basic right. Just what are you supposed to do in England these days, make them a cup of tea?
Where are the Police? You might well ask! Certainly not out patrolling the streets! The days of the friendly bobby walking his beat are long gone. When I was a child, we all knew who the local PC was - he was Diane Finney's dad! - and we saw him walking the pavements regularly. Nowadays if you see a copper on your street you know someone's been burgled - that's if you spot the policeman in the 5 minutes the car's parked outside the house!
And you might as well make a burglar a cuppa, John! You can use "reasonable force" against a household intruder, but it might end up as your word against his and if you injured him, woe betide you. |
| William R | Like I said Linda, come to Barsnsley tomorrow, July 12th. between 10 am and 4 pm and you will see more policemen than you believed were on the force, its the Mayor`s Parade, an important day for us, thats when we check how many policemen we are paying the levy for. The only time we see them. The town has been transformed with plants and flowers, where were the police when someone was nickinmg newly set plants from the displays.? Just wondered. William R. |
| William R | Just a thought for all you Leylanders, Remember Sergeants Pollit and Turner who used to terrorise the youth of Leyland long ago. A clout from Sgt. Pollit`s rolled up cape was a wonderfu deterrent. Now They were proper policemen. William R. |
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by William R
come to Barsnsley tomorrow, July 12th. between 10 am and 4 pm and you will see more policemen than you believed were on the force,
The last time I saw any large number of police about their business was a couple of years ago. We'd gone out to the cinema at Robin Park which is right next to Wigan's JJB Stadium. Latics were playing some southern club (possibly Millwall.... maybe in a cup fixture.... don't quote me on that) and trouble was expected, so the riot police, mounted police, riot vehicles, the lot were lined up outside the stadium. I don't know what they get up to when there's not football violence to deal with - it's not walking the beat!
Here's a laugh for you. Several years ago (and before calls to the police started being directed to a central call centre for the area) we had a handbag stolen at work, so we rang the police station, which is just next-door-but-one, and the duty sergeant had no idea where the clinic was! Time was when a policeman would have known his patch! Mind you, about 12 months before the handbag theft, vandals had broken into the special needs children's nursery, which is right next to the police station, and had a high old time, trashing the place. The alarm was ringing out, windows were smashed, furniture wrecked, yet no-one from HM Police next door noticed a thing![V] |
| noel | Dunkirk Lane used to be a lovely spot to live in. Not any more, Moss Side as it's called now has had a large influx of "foreigners" of the not very pleasant kind. I avoid the area like the plague.
From tonights leyland citizen on www.leylandtoday.co.uk comes this harrowing story.
"A DISTRAUGHT young couple who were brutally attacked by teenage thugs claim the lives of residents in Leyland are being ruined by yobs.
Philip Hindley, 25, and his partner insist they are desperate to leave Moss Side after the vicious assault in which they were both punched and kicked to the ground by a 10-strong gang of youths on Dunkirk Lane.
The couple claim they are the latest in a string of victims who have suffered at the hands of aggressive yobs.
Mr Hindley was walking towards a newsagents with his partner and mother on Sunday July 13 when he was verbally abused by a man close to Moss Side Community Centre.
After a short confrontation, the thug then smashed a glass bottle around the side of Mr Hindley's face.
A nearby gang of youths then jumped into the brawl and began kicking and punching Mr Hindley as he lay on the ground. Mr Hindley's partner, who does not want to be named, was struck in the face by a gang member. The attack left Mr Hindley with a fractured cheekbone, a black eye, two missing teeth and chest injuries, while his partner suffered slight bruising.
Five youths were arrested and later bailed to re-appear at a police station pending further investigations. Nobody has yet been charged.
Mr Hindley, who is still recovering from his injuries, said the attack had left his family mentally scarred and is now desperate to leave the area.
He said: "It's a disgrace what is happening around here. A lot of residents are frightened about what's going on. We're not the first to have been attacked.
"It was completely unprovoked, I can't understand why those lads would want to attack me and my partner. It will take me a long time to recover from this. I don't know why I'm living around here any more."
His partner added: "The gang were kicking Philip's head as though it was a bouncy ball, it was horrible. We've had enough of this place ... it's absolutely appalling."
It comes three months after security guard Karl Hooley was left with serious face and rib injuries after a late night attack outside Moss Side Community Centre.
Coun Anne Brown, who represents Moss Side, condemned what happened, but said: "We are making big steps to make Moss Side safer and it's soon to get a community beat manager."
Det Con Tony Wilson, of Leyland CID, said there has been a number of violent attacks around the community centre in recent months. He has now called for witnesses to the latest incident to come forward.
He said: "A man driving a maroon or Burgundy 4X4 vehicle came to Mr Hindley's aid and we are desperate for him to get in touch with us. It's important we try and apprehend all those who were responsible for such an attack."
|
| Bill Rigby | Had an unpleasant encounter in Florida a couple of weeks ago. My wife's mother and sister live in Yalaha, but we stay at a place called "The Villages" close to where a childhood friend of my wife and her sister lives. The friend mentioned an English couple on our last visit living close by and this time she arranged for us to meet for dinner.
The English couple turned out to be from Leicester and share their time between FL and the UK. As soon as we entered into conversation, Barry, as the guy is called, launched into a tirade about how "his" country has been ruined by politicians allowing in all the 'blacks'. He asked if I had been 'home' recently and when I told him last year, he asked me to verify his allegation. I said the place seemed no different with some parts of certain towns with quite large Asian populations. Still, I said, no more than 10% of the overall UK population can be classified as Asian/Black, so I do not see this as a problem in the modern world. He immediately claimed absurdly that 90% of the population of Leicester is 'black'! At that, we barely spoke again, but at dinner his wife wanted to talk of her travel in the QE2, an utterly boring account whose main purpose was to relate how she put down the wife of the editor of the "Daily Mirror" - no the "Daily Telegraph", corrected her husband - following the statement that they would "of course, be returning on the Concorde". I relate no more since any reader will grasp the flavor.
I have never been fortunate in my encounters with expatriate compadres and usually seek to avoid them. Barry and his wife confirmed once again my instincts! |
| LDunlop76 | <<I have never been fortunate in my encounters with expatriate compadres and usually seek to avoid them. Barry and his wife confirmed once again my instincts!>>
There are always ignorant bigots about - what a pity you seem to run into more than your fair share, Bill R. As to the govt "allowing in the blacks", it was my understanding immigration was positively encouraged because we didn't have the necessary workforce in the 50's. I wonder if Barry and his wife realise the NHS would grind to a halt were it not for the high numbers of overseas staff? I wonder if they also realise most of the black and asian population living in the UK are now second and third generation? They were born here and have as much right to be here as Mr. & Mrs. Barry. What would Mr & Mrs Barry's opinion be if a US citizen moaned to them about the number of Brits the US govt had "allowed in"? I bet they wouldn't like the boot to be on the other foot, so to speak! <g> |
| magicman | Noel-1, sorry to hear about the incident in Dunkirk Lane. I spent most of childhood there living at the Smithy - that was when Moss side was full of cows and market gardeners .. and, of course, the original St James' School! |
| William R | Whoops!!! Its August again. Match Day in Barnsley, and Oakwell visited by Colchester, (we won). And there they were, all the hordes of Police to keep order on the streets. Do they breed during the "off season" - there are certainly a lot about on "Match Day"? Crime? oh yes it goes on un-noticed by all these extras, do they put them away in boxes until the next "Match Day"? Perhaps the Hi-Vis jackets help to propogate them in the hot weather? William R (an alias of course) |
| William R | Note to Lady G. Twenty to go!!!!! |
| Lady Griffin | Latest comment on what kind of society we have become in this morning's paper.Faliraki,Rhodes-Gangs fight.Police say 'it was a nightmare scenario following a summer of violence ,drug taking and sex assaults by young British yobs'..............'this is the worst case so far with regard to the excesses of British tourists in our country(Captain Kalamatas)there have been warnings that rapes,drinking,drug excesses and violence could lead to a killing.This nightmare has now become a reality'
Daily Mail Wed August 13 2003.
Comments?
LG
|
| Lady Griffin | 16 to go William R.
Keep up the good work
LG
|
| Bill Rigby | May I offer a thought here? A certain segment of any population tends to violence, mayhem and drunkeness. It has always existed among young men and youths at all levels of society, except the working class lads get the publicity and notoriety, in accordance with the well know adage, "its the rich what gets the fun, but the poor what gets the blame". What is new is the ability of this segment to travel as a matter of affluence unknown 50 years ago.
Living in a country where 'news' is a commodity to sell product, we are constantly bombarded with alarmist stories of all kinds ("If it bleeds, it leads")not least of which are sensational reports of the young as drug, sex and mayhem addicts. Yet, the kids I talk to seem as normal as they ever were, but probably just a little more sophisticated when it comes to using, or taking advantage of, technology.
Sources like the 'Daily Mail' have to treated with caution. Media whores exist on both sides of the Atlantic and the 'popular press' in the UK has its share. Indeed, the scandal sheets in the US - National Enquirer, etc.. - are mostly written by expatriate 'journalists' living in Florida.
I have confidence in the vast majority of today's youth. |
| LDunlop76 | Yes, the mobs who used to fight on Brighton's sea front (as a for instance) in the 50's and 60's are now able to take their skirmishes to Ibiza and Greece.
However, whilst I agree with Bill R that most of today's youth are still good kids (I'd have to - I'm mother to 2 of 'em!), I think the increased affluence of modern teenagers had led to increased alcohol consumption and I reckon this is what fuels a lot of the trouble they get into. 30 years ago I couldn't afford to "get bladdered". Modern teenagers seem to have sufficient funds to over-indulge in booze and with the introduction of alcopops, they don't even have to adjust to the more adult taste of alcholic drinks. Ir'n Bru flavoured vodka? I ask you! |
| Lady Griffin | Sadly this violence is not always confined to the young teenager who has much to learn about handling alcohol wisely ,and moderation generally, but to a large degree troublemakers seem to come from the 18-35 age group-in other words a middle range.
There is also the added problem of louts from other nationalities masquerading as British nationals in an effort to bring discredit to this country.
One rotten apple etc etc
LG
|
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by Lady Griffin
Sadly this violence is not always confined to the young teenager who has much to learn about handling alcohol wisely ,and moderation generally, but to a large degree troublemakers seem to come from the 18-35 age group
I agree, a lot of trouble makers are of an age where they ought to know better. The behaviour of our troops abroad also leaves a lot to be desired - yet again a report on the radio this morning of our soldiers causing trouble - this time it's a group of women in Africa suing because they were raped by British troops....... who were there as peace keepers! Hmmmmm. |
| Martin | There are some interesting perspectives here.
quote:
"its the rich what gets the fun, but the poor what gets the blame".
What has always puzzled me, especially were football is concerned, is that these "common yobs" seem to have very deep pockets. They fly all over the world to have their bit of fun. I don't really think the common working class man (or woman) would have the means to do this.
The green riots that have occoured in recent years are another puzzle. The so called peace hippies wouldn't have the kind of money that you would need to go flitting around the world, yet there they are on our television screens, dressed in rags and looking as if they haven't got two euros to rub together.
quote:
I think the increased affluence of modern teenagers had led to increased alcohol consumption and I reckon this is what fuels a lot of the trouble they get into.
and drugs! Hayely and I were sat on a bench by the sea in Broadstairs a couple of weeks ago. Behind the wooden partition that we were sat by, there were about four teenagers no older than about 15. I heard one of them mention that he had "skunk" and then I saw them huddled in a group trying to light up.
Drugs are more accessible than ever before now that prices have dropped and there is always a queue of youngsters ready to try them out. |
| Bill Rigby | The strange fact is 'prowess' in matters alcoholic is regarded as a cultural achievement in Britain. I mentioned affluence as a factor in what seems to be more widespread hooliganism and in that respect we agree, LDunlop. The emptiness of a culture is expressed when affluence is simply used to dull the senses, whether alcohol or video games.
As for foreigners posing as Brits, one has to ask why on earth would any foreigner want to do that? I determined 30 years ago that there is, as they say, no percentage in being British. The Germans have their own brand of slobs, the Dutch also it appears; Latin countries (meaning the source of the language) in western Europe are not beset by this nonsense, not to say they do not have their own brand of mayhem perpetrated by ill-mannered youths. However, if we take France as an example, some may recall the wave of pick-pocketing and harassment by 'Gypsies' in Paris and other French cities a few years ago. The situation was so notorious that a news program here featured a segment about it. Within a few months, the problem was resolved in the following manner; the cops picked up the 'gypsies', took them in, beat the hell out of them, and over time collected busloads to ship to where the 'gypsies' came from. The word went out, "don't go to France!"
There is an excellent account of soccer violence written by Bill Buford, "Among the Thugs: The experience and the seduction of crowd violence". Some of the book is truly horrifying and based upopn personal observation. I recall at one point he writes that he is ashamed at living in England... |
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rigby
However, if we take France as an example, some may recall the wave of pick-pocketing and harassment by 'Gypsies' in Paris and other French cities a few years ago. The situation was so notorious that a news program here featured a segment about it. Within a few months, the problem was resolved in the following manner; the cops picked up the 'gypsies', took them in, beat the hell out of them, and over time collected busloads to ship to where the 'gypsies' came from. The word went out, "don't go to France!"
The clear up didn't last long, Bill. We were in Paris in 2001 and the guy who picked us up from the airport warned us about an influx of thieves from former Eastern bloc countries who were targetting people in the main tourist locations - Eiffel Tower etc.. The Metro were constantly broadcasting warnings over the public address system to be aware of pickpockets. On our return to the airport at the end of our break we used a minibus service and met a couple who'd been robbed on the Metro only that morning - 2 girls working in tandem, one to push a person as they board a train, the other to pick his pockets as he stumbles, both then leap off the train as it pulls away and the victim only realises he's been robbed when it's too late. The couple said the Paris police had told them gangs of girls from Romania and former Soviet countries are using these tactics all over Paris.
I think it's the same in all cities - the thieves and the litter are the same - as fast as you clear them up, more appear [V] |
| Bill Rigby | Interesting post, LD, thanks. I was not aware of a recent influx; as I wrote, I was recalling 'a few years ago'. I know the problem had gone when I lived in Paris from 1986 to 1993 and, due to a business arrangement on extended stays, until 1996.
Maybe the current mayor will get the cops to act tough again!
I had my pocket picked in Rome. The two teenage girls who blocked our way so the 'active' could work I grabbed, since I felt my wallet go from my pocket. I held on to them, but of course, the actual thief had long gone in the crowd. The girls immediately began to show they had no wallet by undressing! In any other situation, I would have been interested since they were pretty nubile creatures, but I also realized it was a ploy to embarrass with lots of people lokking on. I lost quite abit of cash, but they also charged my credit cards with silverware to the tune of $6,000! Of course, I had called Mastercard as sooin as I could, but too late! Fortunately, as you know, the charge cannot be maintained, since the fault is placed on the seller to properly verify the ID of the user of the card. It was still a rotten event and spoiled what had been a great vacation. |
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rigby
I had my pocket picked in Rome. ........It was still a rotten event and spoiled what had been a great vacation.
Awww, what a shame, Bill R. Events like these really do ruin a holiday. The couple we met in Paris had had all their cash taken on their last morning and had been left with nothing to buy lunch or pay their fare back to the airport. Luckily the wife had a credit card on her with which they had been able to withdraw enough cash to finance their last few hours in Paris. One wonders how a lone traveller whose only credit card has been pinched would fare?
These girls are really slick in their operations. What a pity they can't put the same level of effort into a legitimate form of income generation, but I suppose there's not a lot of jobs open to presumably illegal immigrants.
Having been forewarned in Paris, we split our money between us and then split it between various pockets and sections of bumbags, so that if we were pickpocketed, at least it was unlikely we'd be totally wiped out. We also avoided speaking to each other on the Metro so as not to mark ourselves out as tourists and we kept away from the major tourist sites. But really one shouldn't have to curtail one's activities for fear of crime - having to be extra-vigilant does spoil one's break.
But, as I said before, it's the same in any big city. I keep an extra hold on my bag even in Manchester and felt I had to be very careful when in London a couple of months ago - esp around Euston, which was packed out. However, it's nothing new - London was reknowned in Tudor times for the skill of the "cut-purses" lurking on the streets! |
| skitzy | When I was in Paris last year for a 2 night stay, we went on the underground, on the way out of the station the turnstile got stuck & a man behind me was trying to push me through, when i turned round to look at him, he had his hand in my bag flap, luckily the compartments of the bag all had zips. I then realised he was with another person who had deliberately messed with the turnstile, before i had chance to tell my husband & daughter they both fled.
Eileen |
| Martin | quote:
Originally posted by LDunlop76
an influx of thieves from former Eastern bloc countries who were targetting people in the main tourist locations
2 girls working in tandem. the Paris police had told them gangs of girls from Romania and former Soviet countries are using these tactics all over Paris.
I've seen this in a pub in London, two foreign girls came and sat down in the area we were in, they fiddled about with their coats and bags for a few minutes then got up and left. A few minutes later, one of our friends noticed that her bag had been stolen. It was all on cctv but I don't think they have been caught yet. |
| Caroline | Going back to the alcohol thing...it's fuelled by the fact that one can buy it almost anywhere, now.When I was growing up, you could just buy booze from an off-license, or the little 'Out Sales' hatch of a pub . There was one shop on Towngate with a severe-but-kindly elderly lady behind the counter, you'd get away with nothing!I was proud to tell her ' Eighteen today!' when she asked me on my birthday, buying beer to take back to school and open on the Physics Lab drawer handles! |
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by Martin
I've seen this in a pub in London, two foreign girls came and sat down in the area we were in, they fiddled about with their coats and bags for a few minutes then got up and left. A few minutes later, one of our friends noticed that her bag had been stolen. It was all on cctv but I don't think they have been caught yet.
I remember this incident being mentioned at the time on Hayley's forum. Just shows you really have to be security conscious when you're out and about. [V] A friend and colleague who works nearer to Liverpool was telling me about how her younger co-workers cope on nights out in that city. Aware that they may get too tipsy to keep a close eye on their stuff all evening, they just carry a tiny bag and put only lipstick and a hanky into it, then keep a credit card tucked into the side of their bras. Rather than pay for each round of drinks as they order it, they run up a tab in each pub or club they visit and take it in turns to pay for it on credit when they leave. I wonder how long before thieves get wise to this ploy and start groping women's boobs to get at their dosh! [:0] |
| Lady Griffin | Just spent a lovely visit to Carlisle-wandering round castle,cathedral and admiring architecture and history generally .The hanging baskets and flower displays were magnificent.Very peaceful and quiet until about 9 PM when the night life began.Young people out in droves to while the night away -Yates Wine Lodge and Pubs including The Griffin alive and hopping.
Quite a revelation to me to see the transformation.
LG |