| Another face of politics |
| Martin | quote:
Local BNP cell started
THE British National Party (BNP) is planning to push for supporters in Preston and South Ribble in time for the next local elections.
Party members relaunched the Preston branch of their party at a secret meeting, held in an undisclosed location in the city, last week.
[url]http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/lancashire/preston/news/PRESTNEWS3.html[/url]
We seem to be seeing more of this in recent years. Will they have any kind of impact on South Ribble? |
| LDunlop76 | <<Party members relaunched the Preston branch of their party at a secret meeting, held in an undisclosed location in the city>>
This line speaks volumes to me. There's something decidedly shady about a party which holds secret meetings in undisclosed locations. |
| Bill Rigby | Indeed, LD76, it is exactly how the Nazi party started in Germany. All the fascist minded have a penchant for secrecy and closed doors, as if afraid their ideas exposed to clean light will wither like vampires in sunlight! |
| noel | The problem Martin as I'm sure anyone living in England will know, is the reporting of asylum seekers bythe media. Visions of thousands of males clambering over security fences to cross the channel tunnel, most of them don't speak English and aren't asylum seekers, they are attempting to hijack the benefits that are available for genuine asylum seekers. That is why they are seeking to come here and not countries such as France who won't tolerate them, and that is why parties such as the BNP are sticking their oars in .
Added to that the support from extreme muslim groups for the actions of 911 and Al Qaeda etc. and the government's apparent tolerance for these views and you can see why parties such as BNP seek to grab their chance.
The government is perceived to be doing nothing so parties with extreme views are raising their nasty little heads over the fence.
Will it have sway in South Ribble? I sincerely hope not and doubt it will have any support. |
| LDunlop76 | And just as the Nazis scapegoated Jews and Communists for the ills of the country, so the BNP are scapegoating asylum seekers. As Noel said, the media hype up fears, which parties like the BNP then exploit. Let's hope the population of South Ribble have more sense than to fall for it. |
| noel | quote:
Originally posted by LDunlop76
And just as the Nazis scapegoated Jews and Communists for the ills of the country, so the BNP are scapegoating asylum seekers. As Noel said, the media hype up fears, which parties like the BNP then exploit. Let's hope the population of South Ribble have more sense than to fall for it.
Don't worry Linda, us South Ribbleonians? aren't as daft as we look.[;)] |
| Spitfire | I hope I`m proved correct, but I can`t see any possible chance of BNP getting even a toe-hold in South Ribble. However, for South Ribble even to exist, we all need to stand up and be counted (literally) in the referendum to decide if we should amalgomate and let a regional council, based on Manchester replace local councils. |
| Bill Rigby | Once again, Noel, while highlighting media sensationalism about asylum seekers, you carry on the rather stupid stories of British generosity as contrasted with French intolerance. As I have written before and you choose to ignore it for obvious reasons, the vast majority of asylum seekers come from either anglophone countries or those countries where English is taught as a second language. They come to Britain because of the language.
You are evidently unaware that several municipal authorities in the Paris area stipulate the employment of a given percentage of immigrants, which is why you see so many Africans 'working for the council'. On a visit to Vincennes once a few years ago, I was astounded to find a vast population of Africans camping in the Parc de Vincennes, complete with mobile medical facilities provided by the authorities. A few questions gave me the answer; these were francophone Africans complaining about the accommodations provided by the city authority! By far the greater number were illegals, but it is very difficulkt in France to bundle illegal immigrants back out of the country. Which is why camps like the famous one so complained about by the Brits exists a few kilometres from the Chunnel, sited incidentally not because it offers an easy route to the UK (which it isn't!) but because of the numbers of illegals taken in the Channel port areas.
Your information is very faulty at best and is similar to that when the National health Service; "everyone will come to get free treatment". Of course, "everyone" did not come because most of the countries in western Europe had national health coverage as good, or better than, that in the UK. They still have! Even US AIDS victimes were flocking to France for both the available treatment and fact they could get it for zilch. Even Rock Hudson benefited!They sure as hell were not foolish enough to try the UK!
Get informed correctly and accept that emigration is the great phenomenon of the late 20th and early 21st century as the rich nations get richer and the poorer ones get poorer. Many illegals in their own country are educated and simply fed up with the inability to exercise their qualifications; until the rich nations do other than bomb and exploit them, the more enterprising will continue to try their luck. To imagine the hardships these people undergo simply in the hope of welfare at the end is so ludicrous as to be comedic, if such a belief were not tragically exploited by media whores and the unthinking.
May I point out that most of the people posting here are expatriates who left in order to find a better life? That we are 'legal' changes nothing; I know vast enclaves of illegal Brits in Phoenix and in Kansas City who find they live better from menial job wages there than they could working in the UK! Or so they tell me. I am sure that other US cities also have their illegal Brit 'pubs' and centers. The media say little about them, but rants about Mexicans and 'hispanics'... Fact is, who would trim the yard shrubbery, perform the myriad of service jobs and, generally, keep the infrastructure from collapsing if all the illegals were sent packing? No politician is prepared to sponsor legislation that will heavily penalize employers for utilizing illegals; much better to have a workforce that can be paid low wages, unable to organize for fear of deportation and kept in fear of exposure by the employer to assure their compliance and servility. This is why I despise those right wing politicians always sounding off on the platform of 'illegal immigration'. |
| noel | Well Bill I'm certainly not right wing, and I wouldn't deem to call you stupid as I believe you have called me. I believe I am informed correctly, I think you are rude for suggesting otherwise. You left this country to "better your life".
That's not a problem with me, but to suggest I am wrong for not wanting illegal asylum seekers to enter my country I think that's disgraceful. |
| rocketmanjohn | Bill R, How come you know ' vast enclaves of illegal Brits in Phoenix and Kansas City' ? By not doing anything about it you are as good as condoning it. Do your duty as a citizen and report it, along with their employers. I don't believe for one minute that you know of vast enclaves anywhere. The laws here are quite strict and only casual jobs are available to illegals because its impossible to trace. All employers are bound by law to check and record Social Security numbers and enclose them on their tax returns, I am well aware that there is a large number of Hispanics working illegally at underpaid casual jobs, but the truth is that if they were'nt here then those jobs would have to be paid at least the legal minimum.
PS You were very rude to Noel just for him expressing his opinion, you owe him an apology.
John |
| Alan Marsden | Bill R, I do believe that many of the 'illegals' that have been the subject of previous letters, do make their way to England because they can speak the language. I also know that there are multitudes of other unfortunates who cannot, indeed in some cases have no desire to learn to speak English !
The despair of teachers in some areas is chronic, I have met teachers in the UK ,who themselves are attempting to learn the 'local' languages by taking night classes , in an attempt to cope!
Earlier immigrants from the Caribbean, India, came here to improve their lives, I say here, because I lived in the UK until 1980, and now reside in Canada. To some extent we have similar problems, in our case the bigger problem is that we have an unconcerned Federal Liberal government who has (it's hard to believe),actually lost track of many 'proven highly dangerous criminal illegal immigrants' ! Is it any wonder the US government gets annoyed ?
Earlier immigrants participated and attempted to assimulate within their new prevailing society improving their lot by doing so, whereas many recent arrivals expect the societies they have aspired , to change, to the extent of encouraging their old ways to prevail. It's beyond logic why after applying such efforts to escape their horrendous and hostile homelands, they should then commence to convert their new environment with the miserable and disasterous habits of old !
To assist in this task is equally illogigal.
P.s. I agree with John, there was no reason for such an abrasive,trite reply to Noels letter !
Alan M.
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| Bill Rigby | Noel, I called the stories 'stupid' if you care to read correctly! Your claim of the influx of illegals to Britain because of the wonderful benefits is patently incorrect, and this is compounded by alleging, incorrectly, that only such benefits are unique to the UK. This is media 'opinion' as opposed to objective reporting is my contention.
No one condones illegal immigration, certainly not me. What I wrote is that it is a fact and we will have to learn how to deal with it. To surround your desire to stop illegal immigration with a battery of received ideas and incorrect assumptions does nothing to prevent the immigrants, but an awful lot to ensure resentment.
RMJ, how do I know of the enclaves? Because in KCMO a taxi driver and great rugby fan told me exactly where to go to meet them, thinking I would be delighted to rub elbows with compatriots in a sports bar! In Phoenix, as in KC, the illegals gather in the self-styled 'pubs'. Since 9/11, I confess, being illegal is much harder, but probably easier if one is not arab or dark skinned! I am not a stoolie and the presence of 'illegals' no matter where they are from, as I think I have made clear, does not give me hysterics. Did I suggest the illegal Brits work at anything other than menial jobs? Most work in bars and restaurants as washers-up and fetchits; if you imagine I invented the enclaves, you are free so to imagine... I am sure that if you did a little investigation in the largest city wherever you live, you will discover the underworld of illegals with relative ease.
May I point out that it is illegal under anti-discrimination legislation to ask a potential employee, a candidate for a job, if they are legal? Several years ago when my daughter came oiver and before she obtained a green card, she applied for and got a job with a large corporation in Stamford, CT where we then lived. It took a month for the HR people to discover she had no SS # and tell her they could not retain her! They gave her a month's pay nevertheless!
Here in Phoenix, there are certain locations where in the early morning, mostly Mexican illegals gather to wait for a job offered by building trades sub contractors, landscape gardeners and similar for a day's work. If they like the guy, they offer same place same time next day... I recently had the yard covered with 1" rocks and a guy from Chicago staying with a neighbor begged me for the job of spreading the 25 tons of rocks. We negotitaed a price and he went off and came back with three 'illegals' to do the job with him! When I asked how he found them, was how I found out about the illegal casual labor market! Reminded me of the excellent movie "Riff Raff" by Ken Loach.
You are probably unaware that the meat packing industry employs mainly illegals in awful conditions? The average wage in the industry as a result went from $17 per hour 10 years ago to the minimum wage today and in many cases even less. I have read several articles about the industry in 'The Nation', mainly about the abuses the illegals are subjected to, such as informing the INS about the illegal worker should he complain or be seen listening to union talk...
I suggest you read what I wrote and you will find I did not employ 'rudeness' as a debating point. I made the point that what I was writing had already been addressed, but had elicited no response from Noel; the inference was he now came back with the same load of old codswallop derived from the irresponsible media! If the truth is rude, I stand guilty as accused, but so be it.
Alan, the problem with language is not illegals but the legals! Go to Blackburn ( and I am sure other cities, but I happen to know Blackburn) and see the local comprehensive school, or whatever it is they call them these days, with its sign in Englsih and Urdu! I believe the same problem exists in the US, certainly in Phoenix, where the debate about language in schools rages perenially. The population's opinion may be divided roughly into three segements; English only, bilingualism and Spanish for the children of immigrants. My own opinion is for bilingualism; I believe that immigrants must learn English if they are to aspire to education and better jobs, but I see no reason to obliterate their heritage or language.
I served on a jury in a case where a couple lost their two day old infant allegedly because the pediatrician was negligent. The couple had lived in the US 9 years and neither could speak English! He worked as a carwash foreman and she stayed home. The plaintiffs' lawyer made a great play of the fact that the hospital staff could not speak Spanish and this inability for the mother to communicate her sentiments, etc... was due to inadequate hospital facilities! After the 5 days of evidence, I was convinced the defendent doctor - a pediatrician with 23 years experience and never a case against him - had not been negligent, that the problem the infant suffered from could not have been diagnosed before he allowed the mother and child to go home (it was an intestinal adhesion), and that the passing of the first fecal matter had been witnessed (this was one of the factoirs to allow the infant to leave the hospital). To my amazement only one other jury member was of my opinion! The rest wanted to award damages mainly because they felt sorry for the mother! The plaintiffs had asked for $2 million! A formula was worked out and they got $700,000. My point is that even though the couple lived in the US 9 years neither could speak the language and used this fact as a platform for their claim!
Since I was involved in a program to bring 250 Algerian students to the US to obtain degrees at US universities as well as over 200 technical and professional personnel for training, I know something of the impossibility for the INS to keep track of anyone! Fortunately, we only lost one Algerian in the US - he completely disappeared and was never heard of again. The alleged "proven highly dangerous criminal illegal immigrants" is an old chestnut and one has to ask how can any government 'keep track' of illegals? If they could, then no illegals would be around! As for the annoyance of the US government, the annoyance would be better directed at inquiring into how 9/11 occurred, why did the famous 'instant alert' air defense system not react when they had more than an hor to do so and why the work done by the Clinton administration in counter-terrorism and which Sandy Berger, as National Security honcho, passed on to Condoleeza Rice in an important briefing when she took over was not followed up (Rice actually denied she had been briefed!).
The accepted media misinformation that people immigrate to goldbrick and take a free ride these days is so much unproven hogwash that I am amazed that anyone with a brain can swallow it unthinkingly.
Sorry, guys, but there it is. If expressing a contrary opinion is 'abrasive' then debate has reached new, lower levels of sensitivity and political correctness! I suggest, Alan, you look up 'trite' and you will find you used the wrong word to characterize my reply! The triteness was on the other shoe... |
| Spitfire | I`m very sorry to say this Bill, but your arrogance (yes, I don`t need to look it up - it`s the correct description)is absolutly breathtaking. If it isn`t arrogance, then I`m afraid you have a rather unfortunate way of pressing your views upon people. Good debate, on any subject is most welcome, however, it appears that NOBODY can tell you ANYTHING! |
| noel | Well I really didn't want to upset anyone. Clearly Bill R is always correct. This debate has upset me I must admit. I always try to treat others with the utmost respect. Sorry he doesn't feel the same way. Thankyou Alan Jim and John for your support. |
| Alan Marsden | Noel, I'm you should treat Bill R's rumblings with the contempt they deserve, his incapaciy for civility is remarkable, he may well get his 'kicks' from this fact and just being the unpleasant person that he purports to be .However, I do not believe that he really means most of wnat he says, he obviously likes to 'rumble' for the sake of it ,and could well get his satisfaction from the despair of others. Anyone who would come forth with the callous response he afforded the Australian lady Sandieh's concerns, has a problem!
,
Alan M.
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| Alan Marsden | Bill R, you imply that you have socialist leanings, yet, you are prepared to knowingly exploit the services of illegal workers for your own purposes, the laying of stones upon your driveway, is this not an act of hypocrocy ?
Alan M |
| Bill Rigby | Alan, would it be abusive of me to ask what on earth 'socialist leanings' have to do with alleged 'exploiting the services of illegal workers? (By the way, it had nothing to do with my driveway). If you read the post again, you will see that I did not utilize illegal labor; I hired a guy who begged for the job and 'twas he that went out to get helpers that I subsequently learned came from a pool of illegals who gather everyday at various locations for casual work. I already wrote this.
Hypocrisy is summat else, Alan. If I complained about illegals and then utilized them, that would be hypocrisy!
As you may have noticed, I am much more tolerant of 'illegals' based upon my conviction that if we have trade pacts like NAFTA that allow free exchange of goods, services and finance, then we should also allow free exchange of labor.
The EU in its early form of the Common Market included free exchange of labor as part of the trade convention; this has benefited everyone: From the Brits who live in Normandy and Brittany and commute to their jobs in England to the young Frenchmen and women that seek new work experiences in the London area, not to mention the rather large UK communities in Belgium and Germany.
Noel, if you are upset, perhaps you may explain what particularly caused you the upset? Surely not encountering a contrary opinion? Clearly, if one has an opinion, either one holds the opinion from conviction, based on information considered valid or one has an 'opinion', but is prepared to change it according to the way the wind blows. If either you or anyone disagrees with my opinions on topics treated on this site, show me where my opinion is in error and I will be the first to read and acknowledge my error. So far, no one has shown me to be "wrong" in my opinion on illegal immigration, current political situations, etc... I endeavor to show the source of my opinions and should the sources be shown to be impeachable, that too will alter my perception. So far, it ain't happened...
If honest debate and forceful opinion is 'unpleasant', I have to wonder what happened to discourse... I was once called "the most argumentative ..[:0].. I've ever met and who gives me a hard time on everything" when introduced by my boss to the chairman of the corporation I worked for at the time. The chairman shook my hand and said "Keep it up!" With everyone I worked for or with I had terrific arguments at times, but it was nothing personal, and they were big enough to accept the confrontations in that spirit. I learned that one can take any position as long as it can be justified; it may be proven wrong eventually, but in light of the justification, it could just as well have been correct...
Perhaps, my philosophy is different from those who feel 'offended' or 'hurt'... It was not intentional. What was intended was material to spur debate.
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| noel | Bill, my upset was having my opinions called stupid.
It seems to me that my opinions caused upset to you. Why can't you understand that others have different opinions to yourself? It's not a debate saying "you're wrong" Can you not see that?? |