| Governments,Parliaments and Politics |
| Alan Marsden | It appears rhat there is much overlap in topics included in
a) Easter Memories page 2,
b) Come on, give us your opion,
c) What have they done for us,
d) What kind of Society have we become ,
to the extent that it becomes difficult to determine just where to contribute any discussion on G.P &P.
I suggest that a new subject of Governments, Parliaments and Politics would segregate much of the content, leaving the original subject headings to cover all other items of interest or controvocy. |
| Bill Rigby | Alan, I love the way you blame the French for the UN fiasco! Let us put the facts right to begin. Bush was determined to have his war and all my post predating the event show that I had reason to know that Bush would ignore the UN if it stood in his way. Blair, as the Bush lapdog, clinging to the illusion of a 'special relationship', went along with the most extreme right selected president this nation has had for decades. It so happens that France, Germany and the Benelux, Scandinavian countries were all opposed to war, but in the good old Anglo-Saxon manner, France gets the blame! Bush wanted no second UN resolution that the French proposed, which was to continue UN inspections to a given date and if by that time Blix could not report that all WMDs were destroyed to then take military action. We now know that Bush did not want the UN to find that Iraq had no WMDs, since that would have precluded his war. However, most of the articulate UN inspectors gave their opinion that Iraq was 'clean' and had been for some time. It was believed necessary for public support on both sides of the Atlantic to invent precise amounts of gasses and toxins to lend verisimilitude to the story - they can still be seen on the US government website! When the WMDs were not there, Bush started to prate about 'programs' shortly to be discovered (none have turned up!) then changed his tune to state that Saddam was linked to 9/11, a tale believed by 69% of our benighted public. Only in the past three days has Bush stated that there is no known link between Iraq and 9/11 - he was more or less forced to go back on his invented link due to pressure from certain elements of the media who knew the answer and had the proof.
Even today, a news commentator I respect, Daniel Shoar, presented France's position on Iraq in the UN as based solely on pecuniary interests; when one lives in a culture that believes in the almighty holiness of self-interest, minds cannot conceive that there may be other motives for human behavior! |
| Bill Rigby | George Soros has been involved in philanthropical works for years, all of them based on aid to poor countries and disaster areas. He has written at least two books on his concepts of goverment for the people. He appeared a few weeks ago in "NOW" a news program conceived by Bill Moyers on PBS Friday nights that is the only source of much information about what is really happening in the nation's capital and the 'dirty deals' oif this Administration.
Soros was interviewed for more than 25 minutes and spoke about his campaign for 'open government' in a very convincing and eminently sensible manner. I say more power to the man; at least, like Bill Gates, he is using his vast wealth for the benefit of others. Would that there were more like them! |
| Bill Rigby | I remain unconvinced about Wesley Clark. He has said little and his position on many issues is so far unknown. I shall keep an open mind, but it would be very much typical of the American public to vote for a former military man! The nation that claims peace is its goal and continually does everything to belie the claim! |
| Alan Marsden | Bill R., Noel, Dunlop, as usual ,I enjoyed reading your postings. I was hoping that the serious situations facing the world would have resulted in a wide range of discussion, views, I do hope that many people put forward their views!
Bill,I will of shortly offer a response to your comments.
Meanwhile, it's interesting that the philanthropic deeds of George Soros, and others, seem to praised without question, I must agree that indeed he does some very good work. I do however find it 'interesting' that a person can make vast amounts of personal wealth, at the expense of the general public, and be readily praised for redistributing that wealth in his own fashion to whatever cause he deems worthy ! I'm not offering criticism here, I do in fact appreciate the efforts particularly on the international level that he and others ( at this time Bill Gates is giving large amounts of money to assist in the fight against malaria and other deseases),of course we know that they are not obliged to do their philanthropic works, but would you not agree there is a certain irony ?
Alan M
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| Bill Rigby | Alan, I understand your ambivalent feelings about Soros. He also is aware that he is regarded with suspicion as a financial genius on one hand, but an egalitarian on the other and reconciling the two is beyond most peoples' capacities. He explains it by pointing out that we live in a capitalist world and in order to succeed one has to adopt the methods of capitalism. Even while doing this, Soros says one becomes aware of the inhumanity of laissez-faire capitalsim and his financial success has, at least, given him the opportunity to put his wealth to work to alleviate the lot of the worst victims of the system and to campaign for what he believes is the only path to democracy, open government.
I am reminded of the taunts and denigration of socialists who also happened to be very wealthy and even in the UK with titles! Our personal methods of earning a living or living off the kind of society into which we are born has nothing to do with the intellectual conviction that a flawed system can be improved and working toward such improvement. At least, it has always seemed so to me. |
| Bill Rigby | Addendum: I cannot see where Soros' financial success is "at the expense of the general public". Not unless you agree with Marx's dictum that the very condition for the immense wealth of 1 % of the population is the povery of the other 99%. This was certainly true when economists believed that wealth was limited, as indeed it was when agriculture formed the backbone of economies prior to the adevent of the industrial 'revolotion'. Since then, we have gradually learned that wealth can be created in ways undreamed of in the past. Bill Gates is a prime example of that wealth creation - a kid who messed around with computors and software and able to turn his hobby into a business before he was out of his teens. The fact his company has indulged since in all kinds of restrictive practises is simply a concomitant of the culture in which we live and heightens the need to have government oversight and regulation of corporate behavior. As I have stated elsewhere, the business of business is making profit and nothing is barred short of crass, overt unethical behavior and murder to achieve such profit. This is why Thatcher was such a chump in her strident belief that selfish interests are the only way to efficiency and to hell with a non-existent 'society'. The parallel is Dubya with his silly idea that regulation will be exercised by business itself! "The market will see to it" is as fatuous as the statement by his appointee to the Treasury when informed of the Enron scandal to the effect that "It's the markey working". To show how well industry self-regulates all we need to do is look at Texas under Bush's governorship; the most polluted air in the US around the centers of industry. I live in a state that requires emissions control for private vehicles, but excuses commercial vehicles on the grounds the owners will self-regulate! The success of self-regulation is apparent when behind a truck belching clouds of nauseous diesel smoke and fumes! And I live in a desert valley where an inversion phenomenon literally makes the air poisonous several days each year; a pall of brownish yellow haze traces the paths of the two interstate highways around the city. On week ends the pall diminishes and visibility can even be good. Of course, Bush has removed the EPA report on global warming and tries to give the impression vehicle emissions are, if not good for us, then harmless! Like the Pfeiffer cartoon years ago commenting on nuclear fallout following the test series with people coming out in black spots. The final box shows a newspaper headline, "Government announces black spots are good for us". |
| Alan Marsden | It is most interesting to read in todays news that multi millionaire philanthropist George Soros , the man who earned the moniker " the man who broke the Bank of England " when he reportedly made US $1-billion in a single day through currency speculation that drove down the value of the pound in 1992, is now intent on becoming known as "the man who brought down the government of George.W.Bush ". To that end ,Mr. Soros has now committed an initial US$10 million and is joining other philanthropists and trade unions in an initiative called "Americans Coming Together" (ACT) their intention is to build a US $75 million anti Bush campaign and prevent Bush winning a second term in 2004 .
The views of members and particular the US contingency will hopefully be forthcoming !
Alan M.
('One of the penalties of refusing to participate in politics is that
you end up being governed by inferiors' - Plato |
| Alan Marsden | Today ( Sept17, 03 ) we have what I believe is the best news for quite some time in that four star general Wesley Clark is expected to announce that he is joining a crowded field of candidates trying to win the Democratic Party's Presidential nomination. Mr. Clark, former NATO Supreme Commander, Vietnam veteran and Silver Star recipient,led the NATO bombing campaign of Kosovo in 1999. Mr. Clark is reported to have tremendous potential, because of his crudentials, he is a Rhodes Scholar and graduated first in his class at West Point .
Alan M
( 'The price of Greatness is responsibility '- Sir Winston Churchill ) |
| noel | I wish Mr. Soros well. He has a huge task ahead of him, but maybe the American people are beginning to lose faith in President Bush. The same has happened over here with Mr Blair except there is no obvious oposition party.
The fact that IDS can't raise his snout above the trough and scream enough is enough is a major let down for the people of the United Kingdom. |
| noel | How long before this subject gets diverted as the others have.? |
| LDunlop76 | Yes, Noel, I agree at present we seem to be a one party state - or at any rate a one electable party state, the Conservatives and Lib Dems not exactly putting together a scintillating opposition. However, unless Blair pulls off a massive turn-around, I can see members of his own party sending him on his way before much longer. The worry then is who would step into his place? We're not snowed under with superb candidates, are we? |
| Alan Marsden | It would seem that each of our political systems is fronted ( led, would be an overstatement in the Canadian scenario ), by parties which have achieved power only by the dissent of the voting public. From my perspective I would say the Tony Blair seems to me the best of the Western leaders, I still feel that he was well intentioned on the Iraqi affair and even though no W.M.D. have been found to date, I respect the fact that he had to make a decision based upon what he believed to be the interest of the British people,and had to contend with a chaotic situation at the UN, brought about by the intransigence of the French Government.
In Canada the Liberal government of the last decade and a half came to power due to disenchantment with the former Tory government of Brian Mulroney, who's government, with hindsight was perhaps no worse and probably better than the present Liberals. The massive loss suffered by the Mulroney government led to the splitting of the Tory party into two parties the Conservatives and a new party ,the Alliance. The trouble now is that both the Conservative and the Alliance want to lead the right,and as they apparently cannot agree to work together and allow their respective candidates to offer their services in a restrictive combined front, they split the vote and the Liberals are readily reelected. Its almost as though the Conservatives and the Alliance members are resigned to oppose, perhaps it's a more comfortable life with less responsibility, in opposition ! Thankfully the PM Chretien is about to retire, he is currently handing out a multitude of Patronage jobs ( ambassodorships, directors of public works etc.) to his friends, at vast public expense. This is total abuse of the privelidge of power, and for this he will be rewarded with a massive public pension, probable directorships and in all probability an 'international position of esteem', ( the UNO is one suggestion ). No doubt the renaming of a highway or airport honouring his name will follow!
Enough for now, but comments welcomed.
Alan M.
( 'Only two things are infinite, the universe and stupidity,and I'm not sure about the former'.- Alber Einstein ) |
| noel | There is no question that Tony Blair is a great political leader. A true stateseman.
However many of his policies have lead to amongst many other thingsa big asylum problem, and political spin that would make "Yes Minister" look like Andy Pandy "The Sequel."
Although I was totally against the invasion of Iraq, and feared for Blair when he addressed the American senate, his speech was so powerful and convincing he almost had me changing my mind.
He is New Labour. Without him the party is nothing. I would certainly never vote for him.
Beware the greeks carrying gifts . |
| LDunlop76 | Commercial companies are unlikely to introduce any measures which which cost them money without either incentive or compulsion. They wouldn't get it past the shareholders. I can't see many companies making moves to reduce pollution without being obliged to legally. Bush seems to be wearing a blindfold when it comes to seeing what pollution is doing to the planet - anything rather than offend his business cronies.
I read in today's Guardian that the effects of Agent Orange are still being felt in Vietnam. How often are we going to act for short term gain and not think about the long term effects on the planet? Will we learn the lesson before it's too late? |
| Alan Marsden | Two nights ago ( early morning) I spent over 2.5 hrs replying to some of the above,then I pressed Preview, where upon the Computer locked up and I lost all the work ! Does anyone know why this happens ? ( I'm told it only happens with Microsoft, not with Apple, is that so ?).
Alan M |
| Alan Marsden | It's an interesting week here in Ontario, politically that is, it's Provincial election week, voting on Thursday ! Currently we have a Tory government, led by Ernie Eves who was previously the chancellor and managed to balance the books. To the left is the New democrats ( like labour of old ) they want to extend public ownership and give everything to everyone, the usual practice of giving what people want without asking if people will be willing to pay for it!
Then there is the Liberal party, they don't say what they want to do, just against everything the Tories do. From what the polls are predicting the Liberals are leading , what a mess!
Alan M |
| noel | It's interesting here also Alan with the Labour Party Conference. They lost the vote for the foundation hospitals today.. but claimed it was the union vote ( unrepresentative) that did it, and also got a bloody nose over Iraq. Yet still Blair said he would do the same thing again in similar circumstances. Blair is increasingly likened to Mrs Thatcher. |
| LDunlop76 | In the discussion of the philanthropy of George Soros, we seem to be slightly ahead of the press...... or maybe someone at the Guardian reads this forum and decided to write about business philanthropists? [;)]
[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1049085,00.html[/url]
Does anyone else get the same impression as I do from Tony Blair? I can listen to him being interviewed for ten minutes and hear lots of fine phrases tripping out, but at the end of it I find myself wondering what the heck he actually said. |
| Bill Rigby | LD, you just described the consummate politician!
George Soros appeared in an interview here on "NOW", a weekly news and comment program that is the best on US TV bar none, about a month ago. I made a reference to this in an earlier posting. The fact that Soros is putting a great deal of money into 'defeat Bush' campaign is what made the news in the first place... |
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rigby
George Soros appeared in an interview here on "NOW", a weekly news and comment program that is the best on US TV bar none, about a month ago. I made a reference to this in an earlier posting.
So you did, Bill, but I hadn't seen much mention of Soros in the UK media (not that we take every paper, but...... [;)]), then no sooner are we talking about him on here, than the Guardian article appears. Coincidence? No, let's flatter ourselves we're ahead of the game! LOL![:o)] |
| noel | [quoteDoes anyone else get the same impression as I do from Tony Blair? I can listen to him being interviewed for ten minutes and hear lots of fine phrases tripping out, but at the end of it I find myself wondering what the heck he actually said.
[/quote]
You're doing better than me Linda. I can only listen for 10 seconds before the bull excrement starts to fly ( in my opinion).
Even Gordon Brown talks so much baloney, "Real labour values, bla bla bla" then goes off to invent another tax.
What a pity we don't have a creditable opposition. |
| LDunlop76 | When I say I can listen to him, Noel, I mean in the most cursory sense! When he goes into preachy mode I can't help but see him in a dog collar in my mind's eye! <g> And as for Gordon Brown - I'm too distracted by that thing he does with his tongue when he's talking to pay attention. Even on the radio, I can imagine that annoying tongue thrust thing he does! |
| noel | It will be interesting Linda, (( in a kind of boring way) to hear what IDS has to say for himself this week at the conservative party conference.
I saw a Gerald Scarfe cartoon caricature representing IDS this morning. A box with a big question mark on it.
I think a raincoat and bandaged head with dark glasses and a hat would be more appropriate. (invisible man)
I think the tories need Clarke and Portillo back, but no chance as long as right wing hold the power. |
| Alan Marsden | If by some remote chance anyone is interested in the politics of Ontario, we had our provincial election last Thursday and as the polls predicted the Liberals won throwing out the Tories. So , now we have a new government committed to providing more social services, teachers, more for the health services, more for everything in fact, and promising no tax increases, I wonder what the chances are? The teachers ( who were under the Tories to be refrained from striking as they always do, not during their prolonged vacations, but at strategic educational times), will be gleefully looking forward to enhancing their already inflated rewards ( the new provincial leaders wife is a teacher )!
On a more rational note, I heard perhaps a half hour of Tony Blair's speech to the Labour party conferance in Bournemouth, Blair sounded much more appealing than any politician that I have heard recently. Neglecting for now the Iraqi scenario,he made much sense of what he calls the New Labour. I'm sure that lots of people will respond in the negative, but one thing has always seemed futile to me, that is the constant nationalising and denationalising of whatever, I know that I have seen vast amounts of public money wasted playing that game, and it would seem at least Mr Blair has seen that also !
I thought his speech refreshing,I wish we had him as a politician here in Canada.
Alan M |
| Bill Rigby | As you may expect, Alan, I take issue you on several of your points! Anyone that believes teachers are overpaid probably also considers nurses overpaid! No wonder they strike! I would too! Do you really imagine that people actually like to strike? Most folks I know would prefer to bring home a steady pay and not forfeit it to strike action unless provoked by miserbale pay and conditions.
More rational indeed! Your own rationality I take it!
The task of a pol is to sound appealing. In fact, what Blair proposes as a policy is nothing more than the Tories with a little rehash; I would go so far as to say Blair works in the best traditions of Thatcherism and the rather silly idea that the miraculous 'market' is the answer to everything. As if the railroads in Britain, to cite but one case, under private ownership are a patch on either the Bundesbahn or the SNCF, both national companies, and doing rather well for both the public and economically. (I wonder why the link from the Eurotunnel to London is still not completed! Even Belgium, slow to start finished its fast link years ago).
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| Alan Marsden | Bill R, I had anticipated just the reaction that you produced ! I'm beginning to get a rounded picture of your views, much of which I must admit I agree with, and even the ones I disagree with I often still enjoy reading, but it's interesting to note how you cannot accept any views than your own without getting rather obnoxious !. I don't know what field you have been involved,could you indeed have been a teacher ? Your left wing views are quite refreshing, taking me back to my youth, before I saw how the world operated , and how many of the impractical views you propound lead to nothing other than interesting discussion and a waste of public funds!
Teachers, yes, they are indeed overenumerated by most working peoples standards, they are indeed fortunate in so far as they have daily access and influence with our children, our most important possessions, and indeed they smart enough to take full advantage of that fact together with having the strongest of unions!
I am not at all saying that teachers are not important, or that generally they do not do a good job, just that for the effort that they put in and the total hours, they certainly have a far easier time than many ,probably most other working people. Miserable pay and conditions indeed, you cannot seriously believe that their terms and conditions are anything other than the best available, that is unless you too have not worked in the private sector !
Twenty five years ago,. when I was living in the UK., being active with the school management both locally and at County level, I used to attend meetings on a regular basis, however, working in the private sector I was allowed time to travel and attend these meetings providing that I made up my time later. The teachers I met at that time could not understand this situation, why should they , they didn't 'clock in', and with all the time they got off for PD days ( teachers rest) and the holidays etc., they are in a world of their own, and they are allowed this because we want the best for our children!
I have known many teachers and I must say that the best ones are the ones that have spent time 'outside' their profession, as a good teacher friend of mine said to me, " having worked in Engineering, I keep my mouth closed in the staff room and let them get on with their grumbling, it pays financial dividends in the long run ". As for your remark about steady pay,teaching must be one of the most secure jobs that exist, there is nothing in the private sector that compares. The most difficult aspect of teaching must be ,keeping control of unruly classes, and that situation is entirely due to people like yourself, the 'do gooders', who have allowed parental , teacher,police, even judicial control, to deteriorate to the point where the 'looneys are running the asylum '!
No Bill, I know that Nurses are not overpaid, they work hard for their money, they are also (unlike teachers), not allowed to strike! However I do say that there is immense waste in the hospital systems, these systems are overloaded with management , practical people should be in positions of control rather than the MBA's ,we have seen from your friend GWB where that leads us !
Alan M
('Men are born ignorant , not stupid. They are made stupid by education.' - Bertrand Russell )
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| Alan Marsden | Bill R, You will hopefully be aware that since the second world war all manner of industries and sevices have been nationalised in the UK. One can put up a good political and moral case for this,as Attlee, Gaitskill,Bevans,Foot, Greenwood,Wilson,Benn,Barbara Castle, etc have done over the years, and I might add, I too could go along with, in a theoretical world !. But look what happens in the real practical world, market prices paid by the government for the aquisition of the respective industries or services followed by the business being run by politicians and inept management who are largely interested in looking after their friends , creating large committies and providing jobs rather than improving the service, product or industrial output. Government money poured into improvment and investment only to see taxation increase to pay for it, this giving rise to discontentment and a change of government. The incoming Tories then proceeding to rid themselves of the now refinanced and re equipped public industries at bargain basement prices to themselves and their city friends, no wonder we had McMillans phrase, 'have you ever had it so good'.Currency deteriorating as trade and international banking demands repayment, runs on the pound, even restrictions on taking ones own money ( over 25 pounds in 67)out of the country. followed by depression, workers on the dole etc. and again a change of government, re nationalisation etc. and the same over again, all paid for by the public, and all for nothing, no wealth creation in the public interest! Just look back at the waste, Steel, Coal,Aerospace, Transport,British Leyland !
Surely Tony Blair deserves credit for taking advantage of the sad situation Thatcher created and putting an end to all that nonsensical waste with his concept of 'New Labour'. If he had not done this successfully you would still be governed in the wastful manner mentioned previously. I'm not saying everything is fine, just that he has seen that going along the traditional Labour road when living in a capitalist world makes no sense, so why not try to make the best of the situation, it's no big deal, if industries and services are run more efficiently people will be working and the funds will be available to pay for the social services, school, hospitals, etc!
This I hope you will agree, is basically the same route taken by George Soros, who I believe you admire, he says that although he does not like or agree with the 'system', he uses it to his advantage, expediciously !
Respectfully, Alan M
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| Alan Marsden | Bill R.
The reason it takes so much more time in Britain to bring the railway link from the Eurotunnel to London to fruition is that the civilised UK system is impeded by the courts and obliged to look at the individuals interest regarding routing and land ownership at compulsory purchase , rather than what I am informed takes place in France, that is the government throwing people off their properties in short order so that another prestigious national asset can be completed rapidly !
I see the same attitude prevailing here in Canada largely by Quebec provence (French) whereby they are endeviouring to persuade the Federal government to pay for the building of a high speed railway from Quebec to Windsor,they always look for enormous public funding for prestigious enterprises, irrespective of whether the outcome presents good value in terms of potential use to the public, that is providing it makes work for their own province ( ie Bombardier ),at the public expense.
Alan M
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| Alan Marsden | Bill R, just out of interest, have you ever been on strike?
Alan M |
| Alan Marsden | Bill R.
I have just been reviewing some of our exchanges, most interesting and enjoyable, It appears to me that we agree much more than we disagree, so, you have only to change your views a little and we will be in full compliance !
Alan M |
| Lady Griffin | As an ex-teacher I will have to comment that teaching is like most other occupations in that there are those who are dedicated to the care and education of the students, and those who see the work as a meal ticket.
Personally I began teaching when the pay was low and remained extremely low for many years but considered myself fortunate to be doing work which I found challenging ,fulfilling and never dull.
There is nothing to match the feeling of pleasure in having one student ,perhaps out of a hundred, say thank you for teaching me and meaning it.
It makes all the hours of preparation and giving of oneself worth while.
What I did find tedious in later years was the increased burden of paperwork which took so much energy -even more than the energy required to interest an 'unruly' class-and the pressure of meeting after meeting in which the main object seemed to be to allow those with the least to say of importance a convenient platform in which to rant on.
It is unfortunate for teachers that their results are not so immediately measurable as in other professions.Sometimes the results can only be recognised many years later when a more mature person will admit-yes you did teach me how to go on learning.
LG
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| Alan Marsden | Lady G,
An excellent letter, full of true feeling and commitment, I'm sure there are many mature people who would like to thank you for your service and dedication, I know there are several teachers that come to my mind in like manner, so,on behalf of the many people who cannot respond, your dedication was appreciated!
Alan M |
| skitzy | I agree Alan, there are many dedicated teachers & in this day & age it must be a tough job, a teacher at a primary school in the next suberb to us, died of a heart attack last year after a student kicked him, the boy concerned was about 8 years old & had already been expelled from 2 other schools.
The course that i have just completed for nursing had excellent teachers & we made a point of thanking them for all their efforts with presents at graduation.
Eileen |
| Lady Griffin | Many thanks for your kind words.
I was merely trying to explain some of the complexities of teaching as a career as I see it, and to support those in teaching today who have an increasingly difficult job.
These complexities are not always easily appreciated.For example at times it seems as though every waking hour is filled with gathering ideas as to how to present material in a more interesting way or studying and analysing new methods.This gathering of ideas does not stop during perceived long holidays.
Family and social life often get left behind.
I am extremely thankful I started in the years when students were more amenable to gentle control.When I finished teaching three years ago I observed a rapid deterioration in standards of behaviour and less desire on the part of students to aquire learning for its own sake.Most seemed interested in making a teacher's life hell in every possible way.
More money was attracting some teachers for whom there was no real vocation.They often burnt out in a few years.
I stand by what I said previously that a major difficulty is assessing a teacher's success.
Results can be very long term-the rewards of being remembered in later life as 'my teacher was-----'
I met a gang member in his early forties recently-tattooed from head to foot ,who said to me 'I remember you as my teacher -you were always kind and wasn't I terrible!'I appreciated that he took the time to speak to me.
There was a wonderful teacher at Lostock Hall Council School-many may remember.Miss Smith-the infant Head teacher.She was there when I started school in 1939 and still there many many years later.We were all' her babies 'and each child was made to feel special.
Maybe that is the key.
LG
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| Bill Rigby | Alan, Why 'obnoxious'? Expression of one's convictions should not be regarded as offensive in any way. Yes, I live in a country where having an opinion is regarded as offensive to postmodernists and those who would noy know a Sumatra from a Kirghizstan.
You are again misinformed about the procedure in France; legal process does exist and expropriation is compensated. However, can it be that legal process is that much more efficient than the Dickensian world of British law? I love how the Brits always come up with excuses based on their self delusions!
If one looks at the results of the application of government to public services and contrasts the US with, for example France, but one could take most members of the EU except the UK,what do we see? US - no public railroad except Amtrak that is continually attacked because it is government funded and not run very well and on its long routes painfully slow France - a high speed rail system that has set the standard for such, though Japan has had a good system of a long time, but based on different engineering principles. Airbus has been able to capture the largest share of the civilian airliner business from the previous majore market share holder, Boeing, and could never have done it without government funding (even though Boeing was government funded through its Federal contracts!) France still has three viable car manufacturing companies; Peugeot, Citroen and Renault. Renault has captured a large portion of the UK market and French cars generally have done well in the UK and Europe generally. Renault is a state enterprise though it is now partly privatized - we shall see how it fares with that!
Look at the US infrastructure; bridges that collpase, roads that are decrept in many states, even interstates are crumbling in some areas. My first shock at seeing a bridge rusted to hell was when I lived in MA and used to travel into Boston from Waltham over such a bridge. It there's no profit in it, who cares, is the US motto in its free market mythology. In Europe, the question is does it serve the public, if so, let;s make it work.
The myth of private enterprise efficiency versus nationalized waste can only be laid to rest of one has experienced both, as I have. That is, having worked for the governbment and worked in a major corporation. In the latter, I can relate stories that would make shareholders enraged at the wastefulness and sheer incompetence of top management. As a friend who worked for Esso once said,"We make such colossal mistakes even a child could avoid and would bankrupt most companies, but we're so bloody big they get buried".
Alan, we have embarked on a vast topic here that is the very dichotomy of the developed world today and sound bites hardly do it justice!
As you see I am not a teacher, though I did run a training program for some years! And no, I have never been on strike, never having been in a position calling for such action. I have, however, participated in demonstrations!
Alan, my perspective goes beyond the misrepresentation of the media whores (by the way, if you are interested, a report of a study that shows how much people have beliefs that do not accord with current political facts according to what news source they use appears in today's www.truthout.com - not surprisingly, Fox News viewers have the highest percentage of misinformed beliefs!) by utilising as many news sources as I can, including BBC, the Guardian, France TF1, Le Monde as well as several 'off mainstream' journals such as the London Review of Books, the NY Review of Books and newsletters from FAIR, American Way, Americans United, etc... If my views are 'leftist', fine if you like labels. I don't because they are misleading except in a general sense to describe a political divide. In this sense, the US is a one party state!
I change my views whenever someone can show me I hold false ones! So far.... |
| rocketmanjohn | Bill, A small correction, all American aerospace companies were, and most still are, heavily subsidised. Both Boeing and Lockheed use government owned facilities, not only are they free, they get paid to maintain them. I work at one such establishment. Also, all military contracts get the same treatment, when the contract is finished the company involved inherits the facilities and equipment for the scrap value. Lockheed has just got the contract to store and maintain all the Space Shuttle spares here in New Orleans, government property, government parts, and we get paid for looking after them. It's a common misconception here that European aerospace get huge subsidies whereas the US ones have to pay their own way, even where I work I hear the same thing, people just turn a blind eye and ignore the facts.
John |
| anacortesdamp | John:
After 28 years at Boeing, I'm very familiar with the Seattle-area facilities and their history. The B17 plant at Renton and the B-29 facility in South Seattle were originally government-owned and were turned over to Boeing in the early 50's. As far as I know, Boeing took over the responsibilities of maintenance and improvement, though some of it was funded by the B-47 and B-52 programs.
There's almost nothing left of those old facilities. Most have been demolished and new ones built in the same location. The entire Everett plant, where the 747, 767 and 777 are built is entirely company funded. Boeing even had to pay almost 70 million dollars to the county for road improvements when the 777 line was added. All the training center facilities are also fully company-owned and paid for out of profits.
Yes there are some funds from the government that help things out, but the Airbus consortium gets a much better deal, primarily in the form of very low-rate development loans and in infrastructure improvements. On the A-380 program, the French government is going to pay a billion or more for road improvements so the fuselage sections can be transported from the dockside to the Toulouse plant. As far as I'm aware, Airbus gets that for free.
It's the way things work and there's no point complaining either way.
Frank Damp |
| Bill Rigby | RMJ and FD: The accusation launched by Boeing that Airbus competition was not a 'level playing field' due to the latter's 'government funding' has, I think, been suitably answered by both of your posts. The difference is simply that Airbus gets a direct subsidy, open and above board, whereas Boeing, etc... get subsidised by "defense" programs and to that extent are hidden subsidies. It is enlightening to read the history of Boeing, which is that of a failing company ready to collapse until WW2 came along and FDR pumped government millions into it so that it could make aircraft for the war effort... The federal life-saving injections have never ceased...
Corporate welfare is a fact of life in the US though any mention of government intervening in the health of corporations is regarded as the basest form of 'socialism' - when it comes to regulation! Otherwise, corporations benefit to the tune of $80 billion a year from government largesse; it's all of a pattern in our penchant for hypocrisy, self-deception and refusal to call a spade a spade unless it is in someone else's hand, at which time it becomes a shovel!
On top of the $80 billion for non-defense subsidies and aid, we are of course, as Gore Vidal says, the 'national security state' and fully 33% of US business is based in one form or another on 'defense'. Which is why we continue to outspend the rest of the world... |
| Lady Griffin | I have always felt it best to hold an open mind and listen to the views of others before making a judgement-not to make a judgement then challenge others to change it.
LG |
| Alan Marsden | Lady G, a fine approach, however, if everyone had that approach, no new ideas would ever get off the ground, nothing would ever be resolved !
Alan M |
| rocketmanjohn | Alan, I watched a TV program on the Everett plant being built, the biggest facility in the world, Boeing put everything into it and aircraft were being built at one end while they were still building the other. It was a risky investment, Boeing were literally banking everything on the 747 being a success, which of course it was. Had it not been, Boeing would not be here now. I remember working at B & R's for Rolls Royce on the RB 211 which powers so many 747's, and all subsequent 'jumbo' engines are derived from. How many Forum members realise that the 'B' in Rolls Royce engine names [RB 211, RB 199 in Tornadoes etc] means Barnoldswick, which is where they are all designed.
John |
| Alan Marsden | Rocketman John, I have seen the documentary that you mention about the Everett plant being built on several occasions,I never tire of such documentaries,and yes, it's quite a plant. Of course since that documentary was produced the Everett plant has expanded several times,to accomodate increased production and additional aircraft models ( B767 and B777). Financing the original plant together with supporting the design and manufacturing personell required and extensive supplies of materials on a scale not before contemplated, for the purpose of building the B747 (195ft 8 in span, 231 ft 4 in long) back in 66/67 indeed almost crippled Boeing.
Please recall that period, we were both working at B&R T. in Leyland and many people there were working on the Rolls Royce RB211 ( yes B indeed signifies Barnoldswick), many other employees were working on the design and manufacture of the Lucas of Burnley parts that went into that engine, turbine blades. cowlings etc The prime original aircraft for that engine was of course the superb Lockheed Tri-Star, built in Longbeach and using 'only' RB 211 engines. These engines were one of three alternative types selected for use on the B747,the others being General Electric and Pratt and Witney, both American.
At that time Lockheed were also building the C5A Galaxy (then the worlds largest aircraft 223 ft span,247 ft long), in Marietta, Atlanta, Georgia at what was then the worlds largest factory under one roof, where they also made there the C141 Starlifter and the C130 Hercules transport(first flew 1954), and still building. I have been fortunate in as much as I have worked at both of these plants,in 67 at Marietta on the C5A, and in 80 at Everett on the B767. I often think about the fact that I had worked in the UK on Canberras, Lightnings, and VC10 at BAC on aircraft since 53,belatedly taking my first flight on a B707 to New York and Atlanta in 67 to commence the Lockheed work. In 80,again taking up employment in North America, this time assisting in the building of the B767, and flying across the Altantic in the comfortable B747. By this time Boeing were dominating the large civil aircraft market, they made and continue to make excellent products , they had the foresight to build large transport aircraft and in doing so transforming travel , making it affordable for preople all around the world,I always think about this whilst observing the multitudes from all the nations of the world as they pass through airports. The fact they travel so readily these days is largely due to the risks that Boeing took ,they deserve commendation !
Alan M
|
| Alan Marsden | The politics behind aircraft sales, in fact industry sales for that matter,and this applies internationally, these days is not readily apparent to the public,smart accounting practices are the norm, and this subject once started could well go on for weeks. I have worked in engineering and manufacturing industry since 1953 and just about all the aircraft ( applies to ther fields but for now I will say a/c ), that I have worked on have received subsidies by some means, and of course not being directly involved in finance,one gets to know only a limited amount of the incidents. When discussing this and the state of the world,in the fifties, at that time working on Canberra bombers, Lightning fighters, TSR2's, our thoughts ofted dwelled upon the fact that should these aircraft be used, someone was going to get hurt,was it all futile? yet, one had to work, never the less working later on civil aircraft one achieved a greater satisfaction. I have noticed that all the manufacturers ( and I'm not only speaking of aircraft), receive subsidies in some form or other and many receive remarkable amounts which is often not apparent. I think immediately of a particular factory in which I was working ,the government were subsidising/financing the sales of the aircraft produced there through an export credit scheme, the factory had been built at public expense on public ground and had benn sold to the private company for a token sum. At that time this factory was again being re-equipped at public expense,with machine tools on the factory floor and all manor ultra modern furniture of equipment in the offices.The company was supposedly a private company, but all of its buildings and assets were virtually a gift from the various governments. One day we noted that hundreds of items, possibly thousands, of new furniture and equipment were being delivered thru the front doors, and without being unwrapped taken directly thru the offices and out thru the back doors and laced in adifferent set of trucks, then delivered to another factory within the same group but in a different part of the country,the final recipient being a totally different concern and not being the intended recipient of the government help, never the less, the furniture had been delivered to the original factory as agreed and was signed off as such !
This financial jiggery pokery of course will be as nothing compared to the big subsidies involved for actual airframe supplies to purchasers, in most cases the factories are built on public lands and paid for by the same public. In addition the financies of research and development are exploited , initial designs being done in extreme haste and consequently are highly incorrect (but being paid for by the company budget), whereas the time taken to put these initial hasty designs right ( to correct them),is paid from research and development budget funds, these of course being an ongoing government fund !
There is nothing unusual about this, ( innovative financing) no matter whether it's a government establishment or a private venture,and it applies to just about everything other than extremely small enterprises, if it didn't nothing would ever get built !
Alan M |
| rocketmanjohn | Alan, you did'nt mention the free land, free factories and huge tax breaks that many states use as an incentive to lure manufacturers in, this provides much needed employment but burns up billions of tax dollars.
John |
| Alan Marsden | rocketmanjohn, yes indeed the freebies offered to lure the companies are at our (public) expense , and in this 'race to the bottom', that free enterprise is proferring as 'free trade' ,the rationale is that 'if we don't offer these incentives, the company won't come', and this is true, they are 'free' to go elsewhere where their bribery is readily accepted !
Alan M
|
| Alan Marsden | Earlier this week I went shopping, my wife Barbara wanted to purchase a piece of clothing. We went to the mall, to the 'Hudson Bay company'which appeals to the medium priced trade, M and S unfortunately having closed down as they could not compete on a price basis.
Not requiring a dress, I spent about an hour looking where the articles on sale were made, I saw absolutely nothing manufactured anywhere other than the far east,and mostly China.
About ten perhaps fourteen years ago when the flow of clothing from the far east began to increase,one noted then that the price asked for the foreign article was considerably less than asked for it's domestic equivalent. Today we only see the articles from distant lands, the domestic products have disappeared, replaced by Chinese or similar goods the quality of which is usually good, but for which the prices asked have increased to the level that one would expect to pay for a domestic product had one been available!
So what has been achieved, the people who manufactured the ladies hosiery, dresses,shirts, suits and shoes are either doing something else or staying home doing little , and on a national basis we have made ourselves dependant upon far eastern manufacturers , the middle men are happily seeking more cheap products from the third world and passing them on at inflated prices to an unconcerned public !
I guess everyone wants something for nothing, it would appear that the middle marketing people are doing rather well, but at what cost to others in the community, can the out of work shirtmaker seek the services of a local Chinese lawyer and pay him one dollar for a consultancy fee rather than the $150 /$200 per hour norm for the domestic article ,I think not !
Take the time to look at the previous cccupations of most national political leaders and you will see that the majority and certainly the more successful ones have the Law in their resume !
Was it not those people who were the initial advocates of 'free trade'?.
Alan M |
| Bill Rigby | Alan, go anywhere in the 'developed' world and you find the same thing. Not just China, Bangaldesh, Pakistan, etc... but as I have recently noted, Bosnia, Slovakia, a few of the former Soviet Republics now autonomous, indeed, any country where the labor is cheap and labor laws are either inexistent or, if existing, then unobserved.
Your experience of less costly articles from the Far East has not been my own; the fact is the entire import business is operated by companies that farm out the designs, the material in many cases, and have it custom made cheaply in order to reap enormous profit when sold in stores here. They are all at it, Liz Claiborne, Bill Blass, Calvin Klein... you name it, they have it made where the labor costs zilch. However, another factor enters the equation to lower the profits and thus send the exploiters after ever more remote locations for cheap labor. The factor is supply and demand when it comes to labor. Take Japan, from a nation of substandard wage earners, Japan today has a working class as well off as any and they have to compete in terms of improved efficiency and lowered other costs. I recounted on this site, my own experience of seeing a plant built in New Mexico based on low wages only to find that by the time it came on line wages had gone up to national levels since every other company had the same idea!
As for lawyers being the majority in politics, what do you want? Politics after all comes to fruition through legislation, what else?
"Free Trade" was the policy of Great Britain when it dominated markets across the globe. It is the policy of the United States, since it now dominates to a large extent world markets. The strong always want to play the game which allows them to win. Don't tell me you had not noticed that! |
| Bill Rigby | RMJ and AM; As I said, 'corporate welfare'. It is rmapnt at all levels. Here in Scottsadle, we have a site occupied for years by a shopping mall. Now torn down, it was up for becoming a stadiium, if only the public could be got to fund the stadium so that a private franchise ball game could use it! The public, as it happens, said no. So now the latest is an attempt to offer a subsidy of several millions to persuade Wallmart to implant one of their windowless hangars that blight the landscape across the nation. Scottsdale! You cannot get more Republican than that! |
| Alan Marsden | It's interesting to note that Tony Benn ( born 1925),is still actively engaged in political discussion. Retired from parliament in 2001 he was the longest serving labour MP. I have just spent an enjoyable half hour listening to him in a debate with master provoker Tim Sebastian, on the BBC programme 'Hardtalk'. Tony seems to have lost non of his interlect or powers of discussion . The main point that Benn advocated was his contention that ' Capitalism loathes democracy ', he noted that today even with the non elected WTO , the dissipation, spread of wealth of the world is tighter than it ever has been, that over 90 % of the wealth of the world is still controlled by less than 10% of the people and that the gap is widening !
Benn spoke of his interview with Sadam prior to the war and of the ridicule he took for doing so. Benns statement that the most powerful country in the world, the USA ,is prepared to spend over $80 billion on Iraq, but still has over four million of it's own people without health insurance,that it's neighbour Cuba, one of the poorest countries of the world, has a medicare system which cares well for its citizens !
An amusing comment was when he said that Margaret Thatcher now boasts that 'her greatest achievment, was New Labour'!
Benn, who recently lost his US born wife to cancer, praised highly the care given by the UK health services .
His final point in this debate was his contention that,' Since 1945 , the USA has bombed 19 countries and is now lecturing the rest of the world on Democrocy !
Although one may disagree with Tony Benn on many issues, one has to admire him and his debating skills .
I wonder how many people remember that Tony Benn fought parliament to achieve his 'right' to renounce his inherited title.
For this , quite apart from anything else that he achieved, I admire the man !
(www.bennbiography.com/biography.html )
Alan M
|
| Martin | quote:
Originally posted by Alan Marsden
Two nights ago ( early morning) I spent over 2.5 hrs replying to some of the above,then I pressed Preview, where upon the Computer locked up and I lost all the work ! Does anyone know why this happens ? ( I'm told it only happens with Microsoft, not with Apple, is that so ?).
Alan M
Microsoft products can be unpredictable at times and even worse, predictable at others. I would suggest composing long messages in notepad before posting them to the forum. There is nothing worse than writing a long satisfying reply, only to lose it before it's posted. |
| Bill Rigby | As you may guess, Alan, so do I. His point about bombing 19 countries omits to mention the record of democratic governments as a result. It stands at 0. On the other hand, the US has actively connived to bring about the downfall of democratically elected governments so that a military junta may rule; Chile is but one, Argentina under Chavez is currently under attack, Guatemala is another fait accompli and it took 15 years for Clinton to apologize for the 15,000 tortured and murdered peasants that resulted. The 200,000 dead on E. Timor have yet to be acknowledged as due to support for Sukharno and succesors in order for the oil interests to benefit... One can go on.
Now, on what points did you say one could disagree with Benn? |
| rocketmanjohn | I did'nt notice Tony Benn renouncing his wealth along with his title, it's easy to dictate anything from a position of never having had to do a real job for a real wage.
John
|
| Alan Marsden | Absolutely, I couldn't agree more !
Tony Benn has had an extremely comfortable lifetime of graceous living as an honourable member. Just imagine the satisfaction one must have being subject to the comforts of life in parliament, actually getting well paid to put across ones opinions , no redundacy worries, and no 'can I afford an ounce of St. Bruno' or 'where is the next mortgage payment coming from'!
You will note that Benn often dwells upon the time when he was a minister of energy,in reality,the only reason he was offered the job was that the PM wanted to keep him quiet rather than allowing him to arouse the left !
One would almost think from hearing him speak that he had participated with the Tolpuddle marchers!
Never the less,I admire him ,I believe the man is sincere, endorse some of his basic opinions , appreciate his command of our language only wishing that I could match his manner of debate !
I once wrote to Benn when he was a minister,on a certain matter of concern, I believe that I still have his short secretarial reply containing his signature., of course in true parliamentary fashion ,it was polite but futile !
You will note that Benn doesn't get 'rattled ',always conducting himself admirably,always in a calm manner providing usefull,instant, thought provoking,and non effensive responses, whilst strongly making his point. One would never hear Benn using a profanity or the word 'Wh..e'. Thankfully, one doesn't need a dictionary in order to understand what he is saying !
I believe that attempting to follow his manner, would be beneficial in convincing people of differing options/ views, and would enhance the postings of a certain member !
Alan M. |
| Alan Marsden | When thinking about parliament my mind often strays back to the late seventies,to an occasion when I took my three sons to London to visit Westminster. I don't know why, but we had to split into two groups, my two eldest who were then thirteen and eleven and they went together to parliament. My younger son then nine and I visited the Lords. At the time of our visit some crisis ( if I recall correctly sanctions, Rhodesia/Zimbabwi )had erupted and was being debated. Lord Hailsham was speaking,but what really caught my attention and is instilled in my mind was the sparsity of members present,together with the fact that so many of the few there were laid out, feet up and sound asleep, one certainly heard the snoring !
The fact that visitors were in the gallery observing their conduct was of no concern to them !
Those fortunate layabouts actually got paid for attending, the fact that they were asleep and contributed absolutely nothing did not exclude them from partaking of attendance fees and gourmet meals in their subsidised restraunt !
Our visits to the museums was of far more use !
Alan M
|
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by Alan Marsden
Those fortunate layabouts actually got paid for attending, the fact that they were asleep and contributed absolutely nothing did not exclude them from partaking of attendance fees and gourmet meals in their subsidised restraunt !
That seems to be a thing of the past since the televising of Parliament! Imagine the roasting an MP would get back home if his constituents cught him cat-napping in the house! |
| Bill Rigby | Anthony Wedgewood-Benn has been Postmaster General, minister of technology, minister of aviation, and minister of power.. Opposition spokesman on trade andindutsry 1970-1974 and when Labor took control of governemnt became secretary of state for industry, minister for posts and telecommunications and secreatry of state for energy. Pretty busy guy!
The rather asinine reflection that he did not renounce whatever wealth he inherited along with his title is barely worth a comment, but surely worthy of the Daily Express, or better still, one of the awful Murdoch's publications.
The constant 'knocking' of the system of government is not in itself a bad thing, but one has to ask what better could replace it? No institution is perfect and no human is perfect, but we seem to expect perfection from politics and politicians! What, instead of bitching about things, would you suggest is a better form of government?
Alan, do I detect an element of sour grapes in your denunciation of parliamentarians for eating well and getting actually paid for their time? What exactly was the 'use' you anticipated from your visit to parliament? |
| rocketmanjohn | Bill R, Yet another rude insult. I'm not surprised you suffered personal abuse on the other forums you have written to, however, I won't sink to your level, you will get no personal abuse from me.
John |
| Spitfire | Bill, You are obviously very well read amd make many valid points in your postings. However (and I can`t understand this) you always come across as being `Mr. Angry`. Surely, being an educated person, you must realize that your comments are just as valid when presented in a manner that doesn`t antagonize fellow forum members. I always read your postings as they often contain items that I find of interest. It`s a great pity that you cannot put them across in a more `forum friendly` manner. |
| Alan Marsden | Spitfire, well said, I could not agree more, Bill really offers excellent points ,then he immediately destroys the prospect for debate, only Bill knows why !
Alan M |
| Bill Rigby | My word, we are a sensitive bunch, aren't we!
What 'personal abuse' is bandied in any posting I have made? I asked what appear to me legitimate questions in my last post on this thread (to which no answers have apparently been attempted) and if that is "abuse", I give up! |
| Alan Marsden | Bill R., yes many people are sensitive, its an aquired virtue in some people,and encouragement rather than ridicule is required in order to procure the best from many people, I would have thought that with your wordly experience you would have deduced that by now. What I find unfortunate is the fact that you have obviously have so much to offer in terms of worthwhile knowledgable debate, yet your main domain appears to be provocation. In small amounts this can stimulate debate , but there are limits.
Don't worry Bill, you will certainly receive ample replies in due course, I just hope that you will be able to hold back a little, tolerate other opinions.
Regards, Alan M
|
| Bill Rigby | Alan, ridicule is far from my mind! I admit, however, to provocation though I like to think of it as a stimulus to discussion. Only by exchange of ideas, no matter how odious to some, can we both learn and sharpen our wits.
Looking forward to 'replies'...
Best, BillR |
| Alan Marsden | Bill R,
Very well, points taken, now, maybe I'm being somewhat presumptious, but, as far as I'm concerned, I think that enough time has been spent on secondary issues, bickering etc. I hope certain issues will be forgiven, if not forgotten.
Forthwith I intend to compile a list from past postings of possible contentious political issues , and address the same !
Alan M |
| Bill Rigby | Good on yer, Alan! |
| Alan Marsden | I'm wondering if Sam Walton's Walmart has impacted the UK yet, if not consider yourself fortunate ! This outfit has massive stores, the perception is that they are cheaper than everyone else, but, having visited several of their depressing stores, where they almost kiss your feet when you enter,I cannot agree that their prices are much if any different from many other large outfits. The following was in the Toronto Star, October 18 2003
Alan M
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Values outsourced
What are the social costs of the Wal-Mart economy?
Everything is justified by `slavish devotion' to the consumer
DAVID OLIVE
At the beginning of the 20th century, the most
transformational enterprise in the world, Ford Motor Co.,
dramatically raised wages for its assembly-line workers and
reduced their work week. Henry Ford wanted his employees to be
able to afford a Model T, and have the leisure time to enjoy
it.
At the dawn of the 21st century, the transformational
enterprise of our times, Wal-Mart Stores Inc., pays most of
its U.S. employees poverty-level wages, skimps on worker and
retiree benefits and is accused in almost 40 lawsuits of
making staff work overtime without pay.
This is Ground Zero in the Wal-Mart economy, and most of us
are complicit in whatever role it has played in the
elimination of 2.8 million jobs in the U.S. economy since
2001, and 77,000 manufacturing jobs in Canada so far this
year.
A stunning 82 per cent of American households bought something
at Wal-Mart last year. And not long after its arrival here in
the mid-1990s, Wal-Mart had pushed T. Eaton Co. and Kmart
Canada into an early grave, merely an opening act for its
current menacing regard for survivors Hudson's Bay Co., Loblaw
Cos., Shoppers Drug Mart Ltd. and the like.
At Ground Zero, Wal-Mart has piggybacked on the trends in free
trade, weakened unions, diminished customer loyalty and
just-in-time delivery methods to become the world's biggest
private enterprise, with $245 billion (U.S.) in sales.
Wal-Mart alone now accounts for about 10 per cent of total
U.S. imports from low-wage China. ("Walk around Wal-Mart,"
says former General Motors Corp. chief executive Jack Smith,
"and it looks as if everything is made in China.")
What it doesn't outsource directly, Wal-Mart obtains from
suppliers who find they too must outsource to low-wage
jurisdictions in order to cut their selling price to the bone.
The saying goes that the second-worst thing for a manufacturer
to do is sign a Wal-Mart contract, so stringent are its cost
demands. The worst thing is failing to do so, given the
importance of Wal-Mart's shelf space.
This would explain why even the mighty Procter & Gamble Co.,
which looks to Wal-Mart as the largest customer for many of
its products, was compelled this year to outsource production
of its iconic Ivory soap to a lower-cost manufacturer in
Ontario.
In the wider Wal-Mart economy, blue-chip companies now
benchmark themselves against "the Beast of Bentonville."
And so the giant Electronic Data Systems Corp., founded by
Ross Perot but no longer run by that noisy patriot, now
recruits $1.25-an-hour tech workers in India and sheds their
$10-an-hour counterparts in EDS's home state of Texas.
Wall Street brokerages including Morgan Stanley and J.P.
Morgan Chase & Co. are shifting from New York to India the
ground-floor stock-research jobs that traditionally lead to
plum analyst assignments. Both India and China are already
well-known to recruiters from Intel Corp. and Microsoft Corp.
Levi Strauss & Co. has just announced the closing of its
remaining four North American plants, including three in
Canada, and will shift all production to Asia and Latin
America.
Paul Martin's Canada Steamship Lines has long recruited mostly
non-Canadian crews for its freighters. Recently, Nike Inc.
shut a Southern Ontario plant that made hockey sticks for
stars like Eric Lindros to shift some production offshore.
And despite personal interventions from Governor George
Pataki, Sen. Hillary Clinton and a bevy of state and municipal
officials, Carrier Corp. said this month it will relocate
production to Asia from Syracuse, N.Y., a city synonymous with
air conditioners ever since Willis Carrier was lured by local
tax breaks to open his first factory there. No inducement or
threat could now save Syracuse's 1,200 Carrier jobs, a company
spokesperson said, "unless they are going to pick up New York
State and move it."
Two unlikely sources of social-justice concern, Business Week
and the Wall Street Journal, have recently fretted about the
implications of Walmartization of the global economy.
The former editorialized this month that Wal-Mart's "methods
of squeezing out its low prices ; paying salaries below the
poverty line, building superstores that crush local
mom-and-pop shops and pushing manufacturers to the wall for
savings ; are generating a strong backlash."
But there is no significant backlash against the hollowing out
of industrial North America, where a university degree is no
longer sufficient protection against a redundancy notice.
Oh sure, Andy Grove, the corporate conscience and former CEO
of Intel, has taken up the cause, warning this month that
something drastic must be done to prevent the bulk of new
information technology jobs from being shipped overseas.
(Goldman Sachs & Co. says an estimated 200,000 IT-related
service jobs have left the United States in the last three
years.)
But Grove's remedies, including bigger university R&D budgets,
tax cuts and tort reform, would do nothing to curb domestic
job loss, only strengthen the balance sheet of domestic
enterprises still in the hunt for expedient cost-saving
devices. In the meantime, recruiters for Intel and Microsoft
are now active on campuses at Stanford University, the
University of Waterloo and in Bangalore.
As for Wal-Mart, it makes no apologies for its role in the
spiralling down of employee wages and benefits. "Where we have
the option to source domestically we do," says Ken Eaton,
global buying chief for Wal-Mart, which has de-emphasized the
popular "Made in America" campaign that founder Sam Walton
launched in the 1980s.
But, Eaton added in Business Week this month, "there are
certain businesses, particularly in the U.S., where you just
can't buy domestically any more to the scale and value we
need."
There are no significant consumer boycotts aimed at this
latter-day coal mine.
Sam Walton's strategy of "stack `em high, watch `em fly" has
been a boon for consumers. As the largest peddler of
everything from toasters, toys and toothbrushes to TV sets,
headache remedies and motor oil, Wal-Mart is justly lauded for
helping keep inflation in check. And the firm is believed to
have accounted for about one-eighth of all productivity growth
in the U.S. economy in the late 1990s.
But in service to its mantra of delivering the lowest-cost
goods to consumers, Wal-Mart has outsourced its social
obligations. So have its blue-chip emulators. That's the real
bargain that Wal-Mart shoppers have unwittingly bought into.
The Wal-Mart economy knows the price of everything and the
value of nothing - certainly not of a well cared-for
workforce, or of a full-employment economy, or of competitive
marketplaces that have not yet succumbed to the predations of
a single omnipotent enterprise. And who's to blame for that?
"How about you, for one?" says Slate business columnist Daniel
Gross. "At Wal-Mart, the customer is king, everyone else be
damned: competitors, employers and the domestic manufacturing
base.
"Everything Wal-Mart does - particularly its low prices - is
done in the name of slavish devotion to consumer demand. And
every day, millions of Americans ratify Wal-Mart's strategy by
shopping there. Stores don't kill economies, consumers do."
Who then pays for the chronic unemployment and
under-employment of the Wal-Mart economy, the hollowing out of
the manufacturing economy and the dismantling of the old
social contract among corporations, employees and communities?
You again, probably, as the corporate outsourcing of social
responsibility spreads and deepens throughout the economy. At
some point, the consumer might be surprised to find himself
called on to surrender a portion of his windfall savings at
Wal-Mart in the form of higher taxes to preserve some
semblance of a just society.
Additional articles by David Olive
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| Alan Marsden | Another piece of enlightenment regarding big brother Walmart;
[url]http://www.walmartwatch.com/index.cfm[/url]
Alan M |
| Martin | <~~~ I've just found out why your link wasn't working Alan [:I]
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| Alan Marsden | A little pondering, thinking aloud here !
Could it be that only a very small number of people find Politics of interest, perhaps we have been somewhat overzealous in recent attempts at political discussion ?
Either way , we cannot but accept that politics is an important part of our lives.
I would personally like to read more exchanges of political/ economic/ phylosophical views, I believe that this could certainly enhance the Forum,in fact I believe that the past two weeks have shown that there is a big loss in overall content if politics are not approached, its great to have both the small even personal content, but it's rather important to discuss larger issued too !
I believe that many members will now have come to accept that a moderate approach in expressing disagreement is the way to bring out the most from everyone.
Alan M |
| Alan Marsden | The Iraqi situation is appalling, for the life of me I cannot understand the logic of blowing up a Red Cross unit, United Nations hq. etc. I believe that the majority of Iraqui's were pleased that Saddam 's regime had fallen, their dispair at living in that society is surely being addressed, the USA alone proposing to spent over $ 87 billion on rebuilding Iraq. Obviously mistakes have been made ( eg firing all of the old Iraqui army and police), but, just what sort of mentality can one have to condone the continue to kill more and more people ( soldiers and civilians), every day for no apparent reason ?
Obviously the remaining members of Saddams regime are involved as they have no future, but it now appears the Al Quida could be filtering into Iraq too! I would have thought that the majority of Iraqui's would have attempted to curtail the destructive elements in the interest of their overall development!
Alan M |
| William R | I was brought up before the War, and it was drilled into me that the best way to lose friends was to discuss Religion or Politics. As old habits die hard, I will not be taking part on discussions on those subjects, no matter what provocation arises. William R. |
| Alan Marsden | I have to respect the previous point of view, however, whether we like it or not, politics has an influence on all of our lives. I suggest that if a person does not wish to participate in a rational discussion on any of the multitude of international political issues effecting all of us, that is entirely his prerogative. However, the issues are not going away, non participation in politics permits free license by the very people who need to be watched,it also means that our fought for political rights were of little or no consequence.
Surely the better way is to discuss these international issues for our own satisfaction, hear the alternatives,allowing the possiblity for a change in our thinking on important issues, it's a very important part of life, and if we dismiss these issues out of hand, we have no business being critical of our political leaders !
Alan M
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| Spitfire | Alan, I couldn`t agree more with what you say. The problem is - UTOPIA DOESN`T EXIST!!! People ram their views down your throat and if you don`t happen to agree with those views, then tough. As for listening to ones own views, that`s pie in the sky also. How many times do you hear someone say, `Yes you`r correct and I was wrong`? The sentiments you express are spot-on, unfortunately attaining them is an entirely different matter I`m sorry to say. |
| Bill Rigby | Alan, at the risk of being quite wrong I suggest that the actions of the resistance in Iraq are logical. The Red Cross is itself a banner to a militant Muslim; usually it is called the Red Crescent and why this was not respected is anyone's guess. The United nations attack is more easily explained insofar as it did not represent the UN at all, but consisted of an administrator known as a yes man to US interests. Remember, the UN had not at that time agreed to the recent resolution, which in itself is a piece of paper without meaning.
The $87 billion requested by Bush has absolutely no explanation other than a crude cut that $67 will go to boost the military (the Pentagon already accounts for 52% of the US budget, this and other appropriations takes it to 58% - more money on "defense" than the EU, China and Russia put together!). Only $20 billion will go for reconstruction, which means putting three quarters of it into the pockets of US corporations. Some of the $20b is destined for Afghanistan, which is also in a morass and has reverted to what it was before the US attack. The Taliban is back with the warlords!
The pattern goes like this; in 1993 the US 'gave' $1.2 billion to the Russians in aid. $790 million of that was spent in consultancies along the Washington beltway advising the Russians what to do!
You may safely bet that of the $20 billion for 'reconstruction' a huge slice will go for supplying weaponry and equipment for a police force and, according to the latest report on an attempt to bring order, to a reborn Iraqi army.
Your plaint, Alan, reminds me of what the Germans said about the resistance movements in occupied Europe in WW2. They also were called 'terrorists', 'bandits', etc... So far, no hostages have been taken in Iraq (they are mostly shot out of hand as the recent death of a US appointed Iraqi city councillor shows), but give us time. I read today that General John Abizaid, top man in Iraq, is threatening 'reprisals' if the attacks do not cease. Maybe this will be the selection of 50 men or so whose lives will depend on no further attcaks. Do not think this far fetched! After all when a leading US lawyer and professor can blithely write about justifying torture... |
| Alan Marsden | A very sad day !
Today suspected Islamist terrorist suicide bombers killed 26 people including British Consul General Roger Short and wounded 450 in a strike against Britain and western civilisation, by bombing the British Consulate and the HSBC bank in Instanbul.
" We knew it was a bomb when an arm came flying thru the window", said a doctor at a nearbye clinic.
Jack Straw said the strikes bore " all the hallmarks of International terrorism operations practiced by al Queda and associated organisations".
This was the second day of carnage in Instanbul in five days, following similar suicide attacks on two Jewish synagogues , where 25 people were killed !
Meanwhile,in London, multitudes of protestors express their resentment of President Bush and Premier Blair, an effigy of Bush being lowered as was the statue of Sadam in Bagdad !
Can any rational person living in the western world doubt that the direction taken by the Governments of the US and the UK ,are the civilised direction to take ? Surely these attrocities continually committed by al Queda can only be considered to be sub human !
The directives of the coallition, to "vigorously route out the evildoers" is surely what one would expect a responsible government to advocate !
I have no particular admiration for GW Bush, infact, there are many aspects of his administration that I cannot agree with, however, at this juncture,I would expect well meaning people to show support for the efforts of Bush and Blair their governments and armed forces !
Parading around the streets in a chaotic manner suggests support for the evils of militant Islamic extremists, surely that is not the intent !
Alan M
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| Lady Griffin | My feeling is that the hordes of unruly vocal protesters are very mixed in their reasons for being out in force-many of them may be sincere in their beliefs that they are presenting an anti- war stance. Sadly the extremists, who have no priciples or feelings for humanity, see these actions as support for their escalating terrorist actions.They are in a feeding frenzy at what they regard as endorsement for acts of barbarism.
It's a sad sad day.
LG |
| Lady Griffin | Sorry for the generalisations-I should have added that while I support free speech and lawful protest there are times when it may be counter-productive and only fuel the fire.
LG
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| noel | The Iraq war is very unpopular in this country. People feel they have been lied to about the reason for the war. WOMD. Quite what good it does to demonstrate now is beyond me. I supported a demonstration before the war because I was totally opposed to it, not because I din't want to see Sadam toppled, but because I feared for the loss of innocent lives, and how the war would end, because it certainly hasn't ended yet. It's now a world wide war with Americans, Brits, Turks Spaniards, Australians and for some unknown reason Dutch, as terrorist targets. |
| Bill Rigby | Time to join the discussion again! Does it not occur to anyone that terrorism is symptomatic of inability to be heard any other way? Instead of spening faraminous amounts of taxpayer money on sophisticated weaponry and providing the "military/industrial complex" with huge profits, the money should be spent on improving life and conditions in third world countries. This will aid considerably, not perfectly, the impulse of anger and hopelessness that make recruitment of suicide bombers relatively easy. When one has something to live for, it is hard to convert a human into one with something to die for!
The ridiculous pabulum of Bush's mantra's on 'freedom and democracy' from the selected president of a nation that holds 2 million of its citizens in jail, most of whom are not guilty of 'crimes against the person', but were found with a toke or a slight amount of some arbitrarily prohibited drug, and targeted at an underclass with a different colored skin would do well to look homeward!
The imposture of a 'liberator' on the part of either Bush or Blair is worthy of comparison with the WW2 claim of Hitler and the Nazis that they were bringing a "New World Order" to benefit Christian Europe at the expense of Jewish Bolshevism! Thus, resistors were/are labelled 'terrorists'.
A feature writer for the Boston Globe, Jeff Jacoby, recently wrote an article praising Bush for "following in the footsteps of Reagan" and went on to liken the illegally conducted campaign against the Sandinista in Nicargua to the illegal war on Iraq as a bold and noble attempt to bring "Wilsonian" democracy to the Middle East. Apart from the total wrongheadedness of this, he made the, to me, fatal slip of calling the Contra terrorists, 'freedom fighters'. Anyone with a slight knowledge of how the Contras behaved knows their activities were plain terrorism intended to dislodge a legally elected governemnt.
My point? Never accept the hypcrisy of the current 'leaders' who lied to gain public support for an illegal war (Richard Perle now admits the war was illegal, but says international law got in the way! See The Guardian last Thursday) whose intent is profit for 'special interests'.
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| LDunlop76 | It was said by more than one pundit before the US and UK armies went into Iraq that doing so without a UN resolution would fuel further terrorism in other parts of the Middle East and so it has proved. In so many parts of the world we are not seen as forces for good, but as imperialists to be fought against and I can't see the terrorism decreasing unless we improve our image. We can root out as many Al Queda cells as we like - other hotheads will spring up to replace them, such is the ill-feeling against our governments. We live in sad times. |
| Alan Marsden | An interesting feature on the news last night was the fact that the 'White house' had registered its concern regarding the 'fairness' of the Russian elections !
Remarkable gall, after the farce in Florida at the end of the last US attempt at an election !
Alan M
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| Lady Griffin | It saddens me to see the lack of respect given to police these days.
The lack of repect for others generally is to be deplored-a sign of the times sadly-and to observe adults setting such a bad example to the young is half the problem where attitudes to the police are concerned.
However arming them may not provide an answer in itself but merely create other problems.
Should they be treated differently when they are the victims of crime, and penalties harsher! On reflection I think yes.
I equate it with the harder attitudes concerning the crime theft as a servant than theft per se.
Only my opinion.
LG
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| Alan Marsden | Lady G, your concern for the lack of general respect for people is admirable, however I am intrigued with your response, are we to believe that using your reasoning, that you value your own life at a somewhat lower value than that of a police person ?
Equally, re crime of theft, why would it be more acceptable for a smart businessman to get away with fraudulent acts than it would for his servant to take home the households unused food ? |
| Lady Griffin | All life is of equal value -'everyman's death diminishes me'.However the police are there to uphold the Law and need to know that they are valued ,not merely doing an at times dangerous and unpleasant job.
Theft as a servant I see as a betrayal of a position of trust -not stealing food to feed one's family-therefore the former in my view should be treated more harshly, and if the Law was fair and not an ass it would be.
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| Alan Marsden | 'All life is of equal value', and yet it would seem that you also claim that a police life is deserved of more protection than others ! Surely this enhanced level of protection, resulting from the villian knowing that he would pay 'the ultimate penalty' shows that logically, 'the ultimate penalty' is the ultimate deterent, and it should therefore also be applied for the protection of other 'equally valued' members of society ,not only the protection of police.
The devious immoral self serving acts of late conducted by supposed high level business leaders who should have been acting primarily upon the interest of shareholders and the workforce is surely the 'ultimate betrayal of trust' , taking home the occasional office pencil is not in the same league !
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| Spitfire | Are we calling for the police to be armed in order for them to be able to defend themselves, or do we see it as giving them an extra tool in order for them to defend the public better?
I don`t subscribe to everything I`m about to say, just to say that if these principals were observed then perhaps guns would be unecessary.
ALL murderers should face the death penalty.
ALL rapists should be castrated.
ALL thiefs should have a hand chopped off.
If these measures were adopted, is there any one of you who could argue that the crime figures would not plunge over-night?
O.K. so the very idea is barbaric. But where is this downward spiral taking us? |
| noel | If only all police warranted respect Linda. It's the bad ones, the ones who accidentally hit the handcuffed villain in the kidney area with his truncheon who make me disrespect them, if not visually, at least mentally. If you drive in this country at 33mph through a speed camera tastefully hidden where a 50mph road suddenly becomes a 30mph road, you end up a criminal with a £60 fine and 3 penalty points on your license. 3,000,000 people in this country have been trapped in this way. How can this help to improve relations with the police. They have shot themselves in the foot.
Spitfire, I think your solution may be a bit heavy handed. Sure it would work but it sounds a bit like a medieval solution. |
| Spitfire | Noel, I agree with you, but isn`t it a solution we are seeking? If one isn`t attempted soon I dread to think of what we are decending into. |
| noel | OK Jim. My plan would be
1)Respect for the police.
This would have to be earned, it's not a goddam right.
They will gain respect by
a)behaving responsibly
b) stopping alienating the public by for example the traffic cameras which are generally regarded as money winners not traffic safety devices
c) More Police foot patrols. Get out of the cars and on their feet like the bobbies used to do.
d) racism simply has to be kicked out of the police force. We are a multi-cultural society now and cannot afford our police to behave in anything other than a fair manner regardless of faith creed or colour of the public.
e) accountability for their actions. You can't have police having protection where people die in police cells. Preston Police were well known at one time for prisoners "falling down the steps" as an excuse for bruises over their bodies.
====================Right=============================
That's sorted the police. Now for the public.
#
Oh lordy where do we start?
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| noel | We used to be terrified of riding 2 on a bike incase a bobby saw us ( as he often did). Where are the beat bobbies now? Parental control is a big problem. Too many parents stick their head in the sand.Ignoring what little Billy is up to.
A security guard who lives on our estate had a laser pen pointed in his eye by a 14 year old kid when he tried to shoo him away from a shop. Where on earth does a 14 year old get a weapon like this? The retina will recover but the guard has temporary impaired vision.
Children are cocky and aggressive by their early teens. Trees are pulled down, litter bins set on fire etc. etc. And nobody seems to be able to do anything to stop it. Inearly wrote, nobody cares, but lots of us do care, and when we say anything to these scum types get a mouthful of obscenities, or threatened.
I despair. I wish somebody knew the answer. |
| Spitfire | Noel, I promise not to climb onto my soapbox again, but the the starting point has to be the return of both capital and corporal punishment. It`s the only language that many of these morons understand. |
| Alan Marsden | So, the untrusty opportunitist Clair Short now wants Tony Blair to resign, perhaps she thinks that she is an acceptable replacement , any thoughts on this ? |
| William R | Alan, Who is Clare Short? From her record she is a non-person to me who is in politics for what she can get out of it, come to think of it, aren`t they all? If you were to watch the Parliament Programme on BBC television, you would wonder why the participants are there. Do they have to be members of the Actors Union to become a member, comedians all!! Sorry, its only my opinion that they should be reported in Variety, as with other variety acts. Best entertainment there is, as long as you don`t take it seriously. William R.
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| William R | Back again, when Lady G and me watched the Parliament Programme way back, between laughs we remembered that famous son of America whose saying will always be remembered - "You can`t be serious!!!!!" Wm.R. |
| Lady Griffin | I can see I have a lot to learn about polititians in UK having never heard of Clare Short.
Now the ones here I know and have little respect for -there have been some dedicated ones in the past I think who could relate to ordinary folk ,but now it's a different story.
However I shall be in need of some guidance as to the honest and sincere ones. Are there any!
LG |
| noel | Claire Short is a jumped up little lefty who speaks her mind when it suits her.
She was all for the Iraq war until it went wrong, spoke out against Tony Blair when it did.
I'm not a pro Blair and was always against the war but I do expect cabinet ministers to show loyalty to our Prime Minister. |
| Alan Marsden | Sadly I note that a policeman has been shot and killed in Leeds over the weekend. I also note that there is again a strong call for a return of the death penalty to be applied for the killers of police .
Obviously the police need to be protected as far as possible, however, if the ultimate penalty is determined to be a deterent to the murdering of police personel why is it not also a deterent for all other non police murders ?
This also raises the question of whether the lives of police officers are deemed of greater value than that of other citizens ?
Is this a rational approach ? |
| noel | Interesting point Alan. I suppose that the inference is that the threat of a death penalty will disuaude armed villains from shooting police so if they were being persued by a good samaritan and a copper, the civilian gets it. Not a good idea IMO. Maybe a better idea would be to arm the police. A truncheon against a gun isn't much of a contest, but there again could we trust all policemen to handle these weapons safely. I doubt it very much. |
| Spitfire | I have just watched a program today about the 50`s and 60`s. It supported my views on one of the reasons why things have gone so badly wrong today. A young woman was due home at 10.30PM (as were almost all of the other teenagers of the day). She was a few minutes late and was met by a clip around the ear from her mother who was out looking for her. Can you imagine that happening today when you read about acts of vandalism carried out by 12 to 15 year olds at 2 to 3 AM in the morning? |
| Lady Griffin | Help,that brings back memories ,Jim.
My Dad used to always prowl up and down the road from 10 pm onwards -and I was 18.
[8D]
LG
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| Martin | I saw some of that programme Jim. Interesting and in colour. Isn't there a part two coming up? |
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by noel
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That's sorted the police. Now for the public.
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Oh lordy where do we start?
How about with the following poem? (With grateful thanks to Kath, my yoga teacher, who introduced me to it!)
All I Really Needed To Know I Learned In Kindergarten
Most of what I really need to know about and what to do and how to be, I learned in Kindergarten.
Wisdom was not at the top of the university mountain, but there was a sand pit at school.
These are the things I learned: share everything, play fair, don't hit people, put things back where you found them, clean up you're own mess, don't take things that aren't yours, say sorry when you hurt somebody, wash your hands before you eat, warm cookies and cold milk are good for you, live a balanced life, learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day.
Take a nap every afternoon, when you go out into the world watch for traffic, hold hands and stick together. Remember the little seed in the plastic cup? The roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows why or how, but we are all like that.
Goldfish and guinea pigs and white mice and even the seed in the plastic cup - they all die. So do we.
And then remember the book about Dick and Jane and the first word you learned, the biggest word of all: LOOK.
Everything you need to know is in there somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation, ecology and politics and sane living.
Think of what a better world it would be if we all - the whole world- had cookies and milk about 3 o'clock every afternoon and then lay down for a nap.
Or if we had a basic policy in our nation and other nations to always put things back where we found them and clean up our own messes. And it is still true, no matter how old you are, when you go out into the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.
By Robert Fulghum
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| noel | It's a wonderful concept Linda. If only. I stopped om my rantings when I realised it was all about ensuring the police gained respect without considerinf the kind of scum they have to deal with. |
| rocketmanjohn | Just how did all this scum come about? The only thing I can think about is lack of discipline by parents. We were always taught to respect others and in particular the police. PC Dowling used to teach road safety at Junior School, and everyone listened. I don't know how, but every time a bulb failed on my bike, a bobby would be there to make me walk. If we were creating mischief there was always a bobby there on his bike, his comment of 'I know your mother and I'm going to have a talk with her' struck terror into my mind. It made me behave even though I never knew if he knew my mum, or not. The thought of the police coming to our house in front of the neighbors was a strong deterent.
Guns in police hands are'nt the cure people think, it just ensures that more of the bad guys have guns as well. I see that there is a new projectile that is just a capsule full of pepper that bursts on impact, not lethal, but should slow most people down. But then, not much use against a sawn off shotgun.
John |