| Come on, give me your opinion..... |
| David | Forget that this is the Leyland Talk page, I need to know, and this is the most read page.....who do you think, with the world almost at war, and the British backing the USA to the hilt (government at least)....Are the USA and Britain the two most hated countries on the planet right now ? And if not, in your opininon, who is ??? |
| noel | Good topic, I think we probably are, though I think the USA accepts for some time that it has been the most hated. Many American friends I have have stated that to me time and again. Quite why Blair should drag we Brits into the firing line to go along with young gung-ho Bush is quite beyond me, if it'd had been The Iron Lady I'm sure she would have gone along with Bush whilst Neil Kinnock would have been dead against. |
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by David
Are the USA and Britain the two most hated countries on the planet right now ?
Yeah, I think we probably are. I think the difference is that in Britain we've probably known for a long while that we're not liked - subjugating a quarter of the globe to create an empire doesn't tend to inspire too many friendly thoughts - however, I reckon it only hit home for a lot of Americans how disliked the US is after 9/11. And the US govt isn't doing much to make friends when it starts saying nasty things and threatening import sanctions on countries who dare to hold opposing opinions on blasting Saddam right now. (France & Germany)
I dread to think what will happen within world politics if the Bush-Blair coalition attack Iraq without a 2nd UN resolution...... [:(] |
| rocketmanjohn | Sanctions havent worked for the last 12 years. Saddam Hussain still terrorises his own people and obviously supports terrorism. Will it take a germ laden rocket on Israel to convince the rest of the world that this man cannot be trusted, ever? The parallels with 1937 are scary, how many millions died to stop that one. I am neither pro Arab nor pro Israeli, but I am pro peace, sounds crazy, but we are'nt going to get any 'til this regime is taken out, one way or another.
John |
| Lady Griffin | The parallels with pre WW11 are indeed food for thought-history repeating etc etc.
I'm old enought to remember the triumphant return from Europe with the flimsy piece of paper-Peace in Our Time.Only gave the enemy time to consolidate and prolong the inevitable conflict.
Today in NZ is a day of protests by groups against any military moves by the USA and other supporting nations.
It's a hard call but everyone these days seems to hate and want to shoot the policeman and the one who stands up to be counted whatever the issue.
Australia had a wake up call in Bali and look at the arrows fired at John Howard for his stance.
Tall poppies all over again.
Not saying I think there should not be every effort made to solve the problem without military might being involved.
But patience is wearing thin and it may be a case of repeating the lessons of the past if there is not some sort of resolution without the complete disintegration of the United Nations.
Then Saddam will have won by default.
It seems to me a pity that Bush conveys such a go and get em attitude therefore destroying a support base.Am rather surprised at the compliance by Blair-can't help thinking they know a lot more than the hoi polloi.
That's my twopennyworth.
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| noel | We had a massive demonstration in London today against any war. Over 1,000,000 people took part. I wish I could have made it, I have never felt so strongly anti-war before. What Sadam does to his own people is nothing to do with us. I would hate to think that another country decided to invade ours because of the high taxes our government has burdened us with. Most of the terrorists arrested in England recently are from Algeria. Why are we not making war with Algeria ? Why Iraq? The government will never win the public over unless they come up with some sound reasons .
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| rocketmanjohn | [ What Sadam does to his own people is nothing to do with us.
Noel, surely by your statement you are condoning mass murder. If we know what is going on, then surely we have a responsibility to stop it. How many more Kurds will be slaughtered if we stand back and do nothing.
As I said before, there are many parallels here. Millions of Jews died because too many nations said it was no business of theirs.
John |
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by rocketmanjohn
Noel, surely by your statement you are condoning mass murder. If we know what is going on, then surely we have a responsibility to stop it. John
I take your point, John, but thousands of Iraqis have died as a result of the sanctions imposed 12 years ago. (Shortage of medicines etc.) So where does that place us? We are responsible for some of the suffering in Iraq. |
| noel | John it's a really complex issue this, far too great for simple me to comprehend, however as regards "mass murder" what would the effect of the USA invading Iraq and killing many innocents in their attempts to oust Sadam? I have a friend whose sister lives in Iraq, she is a school teacher and so badly paid my friend has to send her money to help her eek out a living. Does she deserve to be bombed ?
I wish there were a simple answer to getting rid of this tyrant maybe Bush snr. regrets never doing it 12 years ago when all the conditions were right.
Why pick on Iraq? Why not Zimbabwe, China? There is no logical reason being offered to me why it has to be Iraq. |
| Martin | This is a tough one to call. I don't know what we should do as I don't have all the facts. I think that Blair honestly believes that he is doing what is best given the options that he does have. Do nothing and wait for Saddam to drop a chemical bomb on someone, or go to war now and put an end to his reign. How quickly people forget the past. How many remember the thousands of Iranians that were gassed to death by Saddam? Or the other races that have come under attack by him? It's not what he does in his own country that has got us this far, it is what he has done to other countries and what he may do given enough time.
I am not pro war or against it, I just don't know enough to make that decision. If I was in charge, I would send out groups of deligates to talk to all the countries of the middle east, I would find out exactly why they are so angry with the west and what we could do to change all that. The only way to have long lasting peace is to talk and more importantly, listen.
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| Hayleypink | well said martin well said. i think martin should be prime minister!!!!!!!! |
| LDunlop76 | There's an article in today's Guardian discussing whether there are historical parallels between the current situation vis a vis Iraq and World War 2/ Suez. It's interesting to see the perspective different historians give on how the land lies.
[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,898341,00.html[/url] |
| Hayleypink | oh great link linda thanks xx |
| David | It's surprising how differently the Brits living in Britain view themselves,compared to the way the Brits living in the USA view Britain. I posed the same question on another page where Ex-patriated Brits visit here in the USA, and they, on the average, thought that both France, Germany, and Israel were viewed as the most hated countries...strong word to use, but there is a lot of hatred in this world [:(][:(] |
| Caroline | Good link, Linda . Noel, I'd've been with you on the march........containment is always better than war. |
| LDunlop76 | Another Guardian link - this one's on possible anternatives to going to war:
[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/0,6957,178327,00.html[/url] |
| noel | quote:
Originally posted by rocketmanjohn
[ What Sadam does to his own people is nothing to do with us.
Noel, surely by your statement you are condoning mass murder. If we know what is going on, then surely we have a responsibility to stop it. How many more Kurds will be slaughtered if we stand back and do nothing.
As I said before, there are many parallels here. Millions of Jews died because too many nations said it was no business of theirs.
John
John forgive me for dragging this up again. I felt strongly anti-war at the time, I think it's been one of the worst decisions ever made by an American President . The argument was not to prevent Kurds and Shi-ites being murdered it was to rid him of his weapons of mass destruction.
Where are those weapons? And how would you feel if one of your kids, heaven forbid, was out there now being shot at by Iraqi militants.
The war has not been worth losing one British life. We can't be expected to police the world.
There are going to be more and more coalition lives lost each day. Not just in Iraq, around the world. We have made ourselves the British and American civilians the targets for these terrorists |
| Kath smith | What I want to know is why, yet again. two HOMISIDAL Bombers have been called SUICIDE bombers?
If they only killed themselves OK, but they killed others and injured loads of people. What on earth posesses them to go for that kind of death baffles me. As for 7 virgins etc, waiting in paradise for them, would you?
I wonder what sort of torture and drugs they are forced to take before they go along with their master's wishes and kill themselves and others.
Its a scary thought that even Big Brother had a security alert this week.
I remember the IRA threats in the 70's and early 80's. We even got evacuated from school one day because of a bomb scare. When I worked for the DHSS we were constantly being evacuated for fear of bombs in Preston.
I was in Preston when the Anthrax scare in Preston after the 9/11 events. To see all the fire and rescue men in full suits and the set up they had in Charnley street to decontaminate themselves in was a bit scary to watch. If there are any chemical weapons we will be like sitting ducks in this country, you never see a police man, (unless you are a motorist)
Customs officer's didn't even stop us coming back from France on a ferry, my daughter flew in and out of Liverpool a few weeks ago and none of her group was stopped. My parents and aunt and uncle all have names which could be suspect, something Smith! they have all been stopped and searched at Manchester.
Its looking like Iraq might turn into another Northern Ireland, with only military patrols keeping the peace, and they are not getting far this week, we can only hope that there is a peaceful solution soon.
That's why the game Chess was invented because two kings didn't have enough money to raise armies to fight, so the legend I was told goes.
I am reluctant to go into city centres and large shopping centres at the moment, though I also feel that if I let it worry me too much the bombers have won.
In any case talking has to be an option at all times. One life lost is too many and it'll be a long job, let's just hope everyone gets sorted and those soliders get out in one piece.
I am in agreement that Britain should not have to police the world, but for some reason we always seem to end up being there. The US and Britain are seen to be the main instigators of the action and we will all end up paying for this mess one way or another. Other countries who were unsure what to do just sat back and most are still sitting there waiting for us to sort it out. We should have known France wouldn't join in, but other countries have been a bit of a surprise.
I know a lot of people will say the talking is over. Well we haven't seen any fat ladies singing.....yet......! |
| noel | I just get so angry Kath when I see the bloodshed of innocent civilians, I am convinced if a democrat had been President of America,this would not have happened despite September 11th. Hadn't heard the legend of chess. A good pacifist way of settling arguments. |
| LDunlop76 | You could tie your brains in knots trying to sort out the rights and wrongs of the war and the continuing peace-keeping activities. I didn't like the way things were handled and I reckon it's left us as a bigger target for terrorism, which is especially worrying now my husband's working at Heathrow. Anyone who's been following events in Iraq might be interested in this Guardian article written by an Iraqi describing the different ways the US and UK troops are handling things over there:
[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,989084,00.html[/url] |
| William R | I was in India for a while just as they were preparing for Independence in 1947. I saw both sides of the coin, it would be unwise for me to relate my personal experiences at that time. In my opinion, payback time is here. Bill. |
| Martin | quote:
Originally posted by Kath smith
In any case talking has to be an option at all times.
Talking is THE option that should be used in all conflicts. Without talking, there can be no peaceful solution. I have to say that it looks as if America didn't want a peaceful solution, other than Saddam leaving his country before the war started. I don't know the real reasons for this latest war, but the only way to ensure a peaceful future is for the western leaders to talk, or more importantly, listen. |
| rocketmanjohn | What other reason could the USA have for it's decision on Iraq? There is nothing in Iraq that the USA could want, including oil. As regards the Democrats, who wants another after the last idiot. You know, the one who claimed oral sex was'nt sex at all. We're still paying the price for all the stupid mistakes he made.
Just because no weapons have been found does'nt mean they arent there, it's a big country and they could be anywhere. As I said previously, should we just sit back and turn a blind eye to genocide? History would indeed be repeating itself.
John |
| noel | quote:
Originally posted by rocketmanjohn
, should we just sit back and turn a blind eye to genocide? History would indeed be repeating itself.
John
Well John the war has only just begun. You are now having to sit back and watch young soldiers killed off in spasmodic attacks. We have already lost more men "after" the war than we did during it.
As for worrying about genocide I don't recall that being the reason for invading Iraq. Even our own PM Tony Blair has come under heavy criticism for siding with America. In fact a recent poll showed that 94% of people questioned did not trust him anymore. Quite remarkable when you consider his popularity before the war.
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| rocketmanjohn | Noel, My original comments referred to genocide, I did'nt try to justify anything, I was just asking the question. Should weapons of mass destruction be found, would that make the reason to go in be justified? Again, I'm asking the question. People ask why the USA does'nt go to war with other tyranical regimes, if it did would these people the change their minds and support the action as they imply? I think not.
I don't really care if the USA and the UK are the most hated countries, ask who is doing the judging and then ask what right they have to judge. Germany and France seem to be the most vocal, Germany needs to look at its own track record and see that it was the most destructive country of the 20th century, and the French need to be more grateful that they were saved from total destruction by the sacrifice of British and American lives.
John |
| noel | I think all 3 coalition members ( I read somewhere that Spain was one??) are desperate for WOMD to be found. If they are then they would say that the war had been proved to be justified. I hope they are found. At least it would make me feel easier about things. Another soldier shot today continues to make me feel uneasy. |
| William R | John, Germans and French suffer from that common complaint, loss of memory. The worst thing last century in my opinion, was to throw away our last bit of indepemdence by building the Channel Tunnel. Water kept the riff raff from the Continent away for hundreds of years, now look what`s happened, don`t want to be racist so I`ll shut up there. William R. |
| William R | Sorry, back again. I see Spain mentioned. I had the rotten job of robbing good British workmen of their livelihood by equipping a factory near Barcelona with our machinery and writing out precise instructions how they could operate it. I complained to my M.D. that it was criminal to make men redundant for the work to go to Spain, his reply was that If the British people wanted to continue having cheap Spanish holidays, the expertise had to be sent to them in a reciprocal agreement. No machinery - no cheap holidays on the Costas. I then had to do a "reciprocal" thing with Japan, and South Africa and Poland. I refused on principle to do any work on the Japanese project and went to the top of the redundancy list. my whole department`s workload was transferred to Germany because German engineers were "more co-operative". Was I bitter at the Germans and Japanese?, you bet I was. When you work for a company run by a Swiss C.E. with its H.Q.in London, with factories world wide, cost is all that matters, They always get the money in, it can come from the cheapest slave labour, it matters not where, but it certainly is not Britain. They pay my pension, but I`m still bitter
and will continue to complain. Cheerio, William R. |
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by William R
Water kept the riff raff from the Continent away for hundreds of years, now look what`s happened,
The way a certain section of British youth behave (or perhaps more accurately don't behave?) when on foreign holidys, I think it's the Brits who are regarded as riff-raff on the Continent! [V] |
| William R | Hey Linda, I was only trying to be P.C. about the riff-raff. Didn`t want to mention any particular people. I HAVE watched the Ibiza programmes etc on T.V. - point taken. I am also alarmed at the latest reports of our servicemen`s activities in Cyprus (I think). So smooth your bristles down, there`s a love. From over the Pennines, Bill. |
| LDunlop76 | Bill, the old bristles weren't rising - sorry if it came across that way. I was just raising the issue of what the opinion is of us abroad.
Someone at work told me about the TV programme about the nasty antics of the UK servicemen on Cyprus - horrifying stuff. |
| William R | Now Linda, Could we be bristley with one another? You know that daren`t upset you, or herself would have my guts for garters. I`ve told Martin I`m off the net for a few days from this weekend. but I`ll be watching your postings. from over the Pennines. William R. |
| noel | I feel very angry if I'm associated with these youths , I have found nothing but friendship from the French and Greek people I meet on my holidays. Likewise the behaviour of the Brits I also found impeccable. But there again we are of a certain age and went to enjoy the place, not get bladdered and laid every night. Maybe I'm getting old. |
| LDunlop76 | We too go abroad to enjoy the local life, scenery etc., etc. and have always been treated well, though we have sat through an evening of French entertainment on one campsite where the comedian poked fun at "les Anglais" all through his set, thinking we "Rosbifs" wouldn't understand him. Hrrrumph! I could take it in good part, except when the punchline of one his "jokes" involved an English family driving off a cliff, which everyone thought was hilarious.... except for the French-speaking English in his audience.
But even when I was in Spain at age 18, none of my party went to get bladdered and laid. We had a few drinks and went home to bed! We were all about to go off to university and were way too sensible to risk any drunken accidents or unwanted pregnancies, STD's, blah, blah!
It isn't just the British youth though. The campsite we were on last year 'enjoyed' (huh!) the presence of a Dutch youth who semed to act as a magnet for other teenagers. He collected a gang around him and tended to monopolise the pool and wander round the camp about midnight, making a racket. However a run in with a few British dads took the wind out of his sails! He was out on the lake on a flippin' pedalo after midnight and got a real tongue-lashing from campers on the shore. Wasn't so cocky after that! [;)] |
| Caroline |
'These Weapons of Mass Destruction Cannot Be Displayed'
Take a look at:
http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ |
| Bill Rigby | This topic seem rather redundant insofar as few people post, but then I have noticed a nucleus of regular posters with little input from most 'members'.
I am quite suprised at the perception that Brits think themselves 'disliked' these days, whereas, of course, no one really cares. Britain is not what itwas and memories are short, therefore to imagine "we are not liked" smacks of a degree of unmerited self-importance. The US media and consequently many of the more credulous, un-traveled US citizens also have the belief that not being 'liked' is some kind of badge of honor! In fact, Americans are rather more liked universally than any other nationality in my experience. I have had people come up to me in various countries to strike up a conversation when they discover I am an American; always they tell me how much they like Americans and the US! Indeed, last year in France, we were twice invited into peoples' homes and offered hospitality and conversation. One was also to show us the view from the front terrace!
The current spate of incomprehension, rather than dislike, is due to the unilateralist behavior and arrogant attitudes of the bozo we have as president and his Administration. The country is at its lowest ebb in generations and instead of being perceived as a benefactor who often does the wrong things for the right reasons, no one can find any merit in what is happening to the nation, both domestically and overseas. Iraq was a trumped up excuse to attack another nation and has little, if any, precedent in modern times; we are reverting to the 19th C. with 21st C. technology and the result will be disastrous!
As for Blair, if anyone thinks he gets kudos here from other than media whores, they are living a dream. As Rumsfeld bluntly stated before the war was launched, even if the US had no allies it would attack Iraq anyway and he cared not a whit if the UK was in or out. The speech made by Blair in the Congress was worthy of a lapdog; it took no note of the idiotic foreign policy based on ignorance and cupidity that kept the US in Vietnam until it was forced to leave at the cost of a million plus Vietnamian lives, not to mention 50k plus US lives.
The postwar Iraq situation is following the Afghanistan one; disaster! The planning for after conflict has been zilch and we see the results; now both the US and the UK want the much despised UN to help! Germany has already said no and Japan has said it would send, perhaps, an unarmed force to help with adminstration. Pakistan has clearly refused and all this is a good indication of how much most peoples of the world view US/UK aggressive war.
Indeed, Saddam was a vile dictator, but we have supported dictators just as vile and continue to do so. "Vileness" of a ruler is no excuse to intervene in the affairs of a soveriegn state and, indeed, is a criminal act of war per the UN Charter. Using the excuse that a relatively small state with 20 million population, bombed and under international sanctions for 11 years, its every move surveyed by satellite and electronic eavesdropping, represents a 'security' threat to the US is a joke if it were not tragic.
As someone has written in this section, we are indeed more in danger now from acts of terrorism than we were before and Bush has made it so. |
| noel | With a little help from Tony Blair Bill, who I think is secretly wishing he had never got involved. Having said that when you hear of the "alleged" attrocities the 2 sons performed on love rivals, throwing them to the lions and sawing them in 2 vertically while fully conscious, I try to draw some comfort that at least they have been eliminated. Small comfort however to those innocents and their families on both sides who have lost their lives. As someone I forget who said , we have helped create 100 Bin Ladens. |
| Bill Rigby | Noel, It is a commonplace that those you wish to destroy, you first demonize. I recall when Saddam went into Kuwait after asking the US Ambassador virtually if he could (She said the US would look upon it as an 'internal matter'!). Withing a few days, we saw pictures of veiled women recounting how Iraqis had torn babies from incubators, violtaed wholesale every female avaialable and a host of other such tales. We know now these were manipulations of the private PR firm hired by the Pentagon to come up with propaganda ploys.
What is never, or rarely, mentioned is that Iraq had a health service second to none in the Middle East, a social security program equally unprecedented for a Middle Eastern nation and welfare of the poor quite remarkable. In addition, Saddam sought to modernize the country in many ways (a friend of mine worked for 7 years in Iraq for a company setting up manufacturaing facilkities for home entertainment products).
Blood thirsty tales that are patently intended to horrify the credulous simply do not wash with me. Sorry. If you read between the lines you will see that Saddam was pretty much adulated by a very large segment of the population, just as Hitler was by the vast majority of Germans. For instance, I read today that the 'luxury' home subjected to an attack worthy of attempting to overcome a major fortess (!) where the sons were holed up is being totally razed to the ground on the grounds, stated by the officer in command, "We don't want it to become a shrine". What does that tell you? |
| noel | And yet Bill a friend of mine, an Iraqi refugee who works for Farrell in Rochdale has had to send his sister in Iraq money to subsidise her meager pittence as a school teacher for over 15 years. She simply wasn't earning enough to make ends meet. He had fled Iraq because of threats to him because of his political beliefs. He hadn't seen his sister or parents who still live in Iraq for 17 years and feared he would be killed if he tried to enter Iraq. Sadiq never spoke about how he was treated in Iraq, maybe inbuilt fear prevented him . I understand what you are saying about how stories are concocted. I never believed war was the right course of action. Most UK residents now belieeve they were lied to about the reasons for war. Going back to your initial points I agree also we are not the most hated people in the world. We may think we are because of our natural modesty. i'm off to Crete is just over 2 weeks, there is a band of men there who dress in black and have deep memories of the last world war. I believethey are known as Partisans . I strongly advise any Germans to keep clear.
It's too late now, we're stuck with the after effects Thanks a load Mr. Bush. Who next? |
| rocketmanjohn | If September 11th had'nt happened, then there would'nt have been an Afghanistan or probably an Iraq problem. If there wern't any terrorist attacks by Middle Eastern fanatics then none of this mess would have happened. The West would have continued to turn a blind eye to the genocide that was happening, would this have been right also?
John |
| noel | In my opinion no. But it all goes back to the middle east conflict. Until that's resolved there's little hope for the future. I'm pleased to see President Bush has applied sanctions on Burma. Some Americans seem to have so much hate for all things Muslim, I'm getting e-mails now , well I won't go into detail, I'll copy and paste it. What does anybody think about this sort of thing?
============================================================
REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of PanAm Flight 103!
REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993!
REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon!
REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the military barracks in Saudi Arabia!
REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the American Embassies in Africa!
REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the USS COLE!
REMEMBER the MUSLIM attack on the Twin Towers on 9/11/2001!
REMEMBER all the AMERICAN lives that were lost in those vicious MUSLIM attacks!
Now the United States Postal Service REMEMBERS and HONORS the EID MUSLIM holiday season with a commemorative first class holiday postage stamp.
REMEMBER to adamantly and vocally BOYCOTT this stamp when purchasing your stamps at the post office. To use this stamp would be a slap in the face to all those AMERICANS who died at the hands of those whom this stamp honors.
REMEMBER to pass this along to every patriotic AMERICAN you know.
|
| Bill Rigby | Islam and terrorism are two different things and should not be confused. What amuses me is that no mention is made of those who are not Americans killed by 'Muslim' terrorists. No mention , for instance, of the 11 French naval technicians killed in Pakistan when the bus in which they traveled was blown up. No mention of those killed in frequent terrorist attacks in Paris, including blowing up a train in the Metro. No mention of the 58 French soldiers killed in the Lebanon concurrent to the 200 US Marines, leading to immediate withdrawal of US forces by Reagan. The French stayed.
Do you never pause to ask 'Why?' in the case of the Saudi incident, or the Cole or all the others?
Is it perfectly legitimate for us to invade Iraq, kill thousands of civilians, destroy the country's infrastructure and, if you read Robert Fisk in today's "Guardian", continue to kill civilians in what amounts to a state of undisciplined panic?
The Eid and terrorism are quite separate and to exhort "patriotic" Americans is quite unnecessary: such "patriots" already have their stupidity plastered on their vehicles! Remember what Dr. Johnson said about the last refuge of scoundrels?
The unsignificant twit babbles on the Internet, night or day. |
| Bill Rigby | Re: your Iraqi friend. Ostracism for political dissent is not confined to dictatorships; ever read about the man and his son arrested in a Mall in Pennsylvania for wearing anti-war t-shirts?
I have a Syrian friend who lives in France that a few years ago I found in tears. He had just received notice that the Syrian authorities had refused an exit visa for his sister to visit him; he had not seen her for 20 years. He was also a political refugee and told me of the town of 20,000 inhabitants that Assad razed to the ground and killed the inhabitants on the grounds the place had harbored political opponents. We have not invaded Syria - but then they have no oil.
The son of Assad is now in power and has apparently eased much of the repression, though human rights are still far from respected. Charles Glass has a very good report from Damascus in this week's edition of the London Review of Books. It would behove you to read it. |
| Bill Rigby | Oh, well, one more. The behavior of any nationality when away from their shores is never as polite as it is at home! However, the Brits seem to have some kind of a chip on their puny shoulders when it comes to travel or being let loose in a foreign land. I was in Sierra Leone a few years before the troubles and staying at one of the European style hotels (of the three 'good' hotels, one was run by a Lebanese - the Mammy Yono - and the other two belonged to French chains, one a Sofitel and the other where I stayed. One evening after I came back from the day's business, I sat on the terrace with my local contact - an American from Kansas City that I had been warned could be Mafia, but who was CIA in my opinion since he referred to the political situation in terms of US interests versus UK interests and supported the relatively new president who replaced the one who fled to London - when we noticed three girls on the terrace leaning over the balcony and much hubbub from the street below. They were being 'courted' by a group of about 25 Brits who had come ashore from a RN vessel anchored offshore. The Brits, all aged between 18 and 25, entered the bar area, proceeded to get stoned to a man and then began to be offensive to all and sundry. A couple of altercations amongst themselves arose and the management courageously intervened and asked them to vacate the premises. A group announced they wanted to eat and staggered to the stairs to the restaurant, but the assistant manager barred the way and told them he could supply sandwiches if they behaved themselves. The entire situation turned nasty and the management eventually called for help. A platoon of local 'paras' - they wore berets and camouflaged fatigues - came in bearing automatic weapons. A man with a chain of office eventually read the Riot Act (I kid you not; it really was a scroll with the wording of the Act on it). One group refused to obey, but another led by one who appeared relatively sober counseled leaving and tried to persuade the recalcitrants. Only after a show of force from the military and the urging of the saner one did they eventually go. However, they smashed glasses, tables and generally made a shambles of the area. I have compressed into few words an incident that lasted more than four hours and that left me with the sentiment that with representatives of the UK like this, no wonder they garner enemies!
I also got involved in an unpleasant incident in Tlemcen in Algeria with a bunch of Brits who seemed to resent enormously my friend and myself as Americans! I had to point out my English origins and the Canadian origins of my colleague to disprove their stereotypical 'thinking' or lack of it.
As for the pitiful tale of the jokes at English expense in a French environment, what a sad example of an inability to laugh at oneself! It seems Brits can lash out any amount of jokes at others' expense, but when they become the target, whining ensues. Sorry, but I always call things as I see them; put it down to my Lancashire origins. |
| noel | You;re obviously a very travelled person Bill and it's very interesting reading your tales. I must take you to task on your last point Bill , Brits have an inability to laugh at themselves. You're colloquialising, (is that the correct word he panics, it sounds good anyway)
I poke fun at myself constantly at home and in the workplace. As I've said before if you can't have a laugh at yourself, it ain't worth living. ( In my humble opinion) |
| rocketmanjohn | Seems like you're suggesting that the US should invade Syria now Bill. As long as there are religious zealots then there is'nt going to be any peace, and no,I'm not picking on any particular religion. But having said that, I don't see any Christian or Jewish terrorist attacks on 'Western' targets. What would these terrorist organisations accept as a peaceful settlement for their injustices? Most Middle Eastern terrorist groups continue to state that there can be no peace as long as Israel exists, just how can this be tolerated?
God bless Atheism.
John
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| noel | [quote
God bless Atheism.
John
[/quote]
[:)] That's a oxymoron if I ever read one John. Religion the root of all evil. Or is it a way for fanatics to further their evil causes. |
| Bill Rigby | Noel, Some of us, indeed, have such an ability. I referred specifically to the poster and should have qualified a generalization by 'some'. (Don't you mean 'generalizing'?)
Rocketman, No, by no means am I suggesting that; on the contrary, Syria is not what it was when my friend Naasan met with his disappointment. Indeed, I advocate no war against anybody, since the sooner we learn that war solves zilch the sooner we will turn to effective alternatives. War is this day and age of advanced killing technology ain't what it used to be.
May I say that you are blind if you do not see first, Christian aggression against Muslims in the very war in Iraq, second, the Sharon war (I do not say Israeli, because not all Israelis agree with Sharon's terror tactics) against Palestinians. Though, 10% of them are Xtians. Obviously, none of these are 'western' attacks and for obvious reasons!
You are quite wrong about the 'most' middle eastern 'terrorist' groups; you seem to forget that peace was almsot a reality with Rabin and Arafat, with the PLO already renouncing removal of Israel as a sine que non. The very interesting move made by a Saudi prince to bring about peace went almost unnoticed, almost to the point of censorship, and has not been heard of since; however, his offer was made on the basis of a continuing Israel. Why do you place the onus on the Arabs, when so many are far from politico-religious zealots?
The last resort of the desperate is terrorism. Israel was born from terrorism perpetrated by the Irgun, the Stern Gang and others, born of the mistaken desperation that Britain would never willingly cede the mandate or at any rate, not fast enough. Palestinian 'terror' is more than likely what I would join is I were a Palestinian in an effort to get the world to see my plight (not a suicide bomber though!). I think that if I were Irish I would have been a Sinn Feiner too! When a legal path to redress grievances does not exist, or is utterly ignored such as the UN resolutions on the building of settlements on the west bank, then illegal means appear the only solution. I do not condone terrorism, but I can well understand it.
As an atheist myself, I cannot echo your neologism! |
| rocketmanjohn | There are so many factions in Israel and Gaza these days it's hard to say who supports what. Arafat is only in control of a portion and the rest do as they please, he has no control whatsoever of these parties. I was most careful not to use the word 'Arab',and I am most certainly not condeming them, or any Moslems [when did it become Muslim?] in fact I am very much supportive of the Arab and particularly Palestinian causes, indeed, I have an autographed photograph of Yasser Arafat signed in red ink.
You say you would be a member of Sinn Fein if you were Irish,nothing wrong with that, they are a legal political party.
You condone illegal means of getting ones own way, and then condem terrorism, you can't have it both ways.
As for the rest of your entry, I'll have to get the dictionary, I am but a humble engineer.
John |
| Bill Rigby | Sinn Fein was not always legal! Indeed, it was proscribed for years. I referred to the days of illegality when it was struggling to be heard.
"Terrorism' has many connotations, sorry, meanings. When no avenue is open for legitimate expression of dissent then the society that enforces suppression is illegal and any action to counter the repression cannot be called illegal. I recognize that certain circumstances call for means illegal in that society and if 'terrorism' is the only way, then it is a natural outcome. What I condemn are 'blunderbuss' acts of terrorism; target the means of repression, not those who are not guilty other than by association. For example, in WW2 France, it was an act against the occupiers to blow up an ammunition or troop train, but not to plant a bomb in a cafe frequented by members of the Wehrmacht when the bomb could kill or maim passers by. The actions of guerillas in Iraq are of this nature; would you be a 'guerilla' or accept occupation?
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| rocketmanjohn | We have obviously flogged this subject to death and I shall not be making any further contributions to it. Bill, your opinions are obviously non-negotiable, but I don't need you to snipe at my lack of a B.Sc. in English language, yes, I did get it.
John |
| William R | What on earth is happening???? I`m dashing out to buy a dictionary so that I can understand the mystical postings which are appearing on the Forum. How on earth did I manage to become a Chief Engineer of a Company with such a lack of knowledge, and inability to write 200 words where one would do. Some worthy citizens of this Borough would sum up simply as "What a load of verbiage, (I wanted to say garbage.)" Chambers Dictionary says that Verbiage means "the use of a lot of unnecessary words". Martin, please ensure that I am not referred to as Bill R. but as William R. to avoid any more confusion. From over the Pennines, in the good old United Kingdom of Great Britain, Regards, from William R. |
| noel | I must confess I got lost with the word neologism but it was a fascinating read nevertheless. |
| Bill Rigby | Well, Willie R, you know the engineering graduates openiong sentence, "Yesterday, I wanted to be an ongineer, today I are one!" Naturally, I cannot invert the ens or reverse the esses...
I was rather amused by your posting to the "Suggestion" thread where at great length you attempted to write, "The forum is in danger because people are using language and expressing ideas with which I cannot cope".
If 'tis to me you refer, I shall be happy to explain any words of more than 3 'sillaabels', as Bush would say.
Rocketman, opinions, if of any value must be informed and in that respect, yes, they are non-negotiable. My 'snipe' was done more in the spirit of a quip, because the false humility as 'only an engineer' as an excuse to feign an inability to understand relatively simple words does not wash. Oh, indeed, I have worked with engineers who are lost if they have to use judgment rather than a slide rule!
By the way, I do not understand why people are so sensitive and quick to take offense. On my part, it is nothing personal, as the saying goes. Until the above, I have stuck to the message, leaving ad hominem remarks out of it. If this is not so, I would be obliged if someone would point out such a slip on my part. |
| noel | I take no offence Bill, but neologism sure has me beaten. I think you've invented a new word there. |
| noel | quote:
Originally posted by noel
I take no offence Bill, but neologism sure has me beaten. I think you've invented a new word there.
Well blow me down guess what it means, I've just done a dictionary search on line for it and .....
Quick definitions (Neologism)
noun: the act of inventing a word or phrase
noun: a newly invented word or phrase
[:)][:)][:)] |
| Bill Rigby | I credited you with a new expression "God bless atheism"! I did not think, Noel, that you took offense, since none was intended at all.
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| noel | quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rigby
I credited you with a new expression "God bless atheism"! I did not think, Noel, that you took offense, since none was intended at all.
No rocketman made that rather amusing statement. Made me chuckle. It's difficult to impart the way one feels when a statement is made. I usually put a smiley in to show I'm amused which thank the lord I usually am. |
| LDunlop76 | <<As for the pitiful tale of the jokes at English expense in a French environment, what a sad example of an inability to laugh at oneself! It seems Brits can lash out any amount of jokes at others' expense, but when they become the target, whining ensues. >>
If you had read what I wrote, I said I could take it in good part. I am perfectly capable of laughing at myself. What I was doing was illustrating with an example from my own experience that the English can be disliked abroad - probably justifiably with the behaviour of some of our nation when abroad. I resent being told I am whining, when I was merely relating an incident, but I'll probably be accused of yet more whining......... |
| Bill Rigby | Sorry, Ldunlop, but I only reacted to what I read and it smacked of the usual anglo attitude. What you encountered was not dislike, but leg-pulling. I have lived in several countries, notably France, Belgium and Germany, as well as traveling extensively on both business and pleasure and never detected 'dislike' per se anywhere. Indifference, maybe, but never dislike. I guess you know the story of the friends who went off to live in different parts of the country and met a few years later. After swapping the usual pleasantries, one asked, "So, have you settled in the place?" "Oh, yes, fine like the people and get on well with them, a nice friendly lot. And how about you?" The former friend replied, "Well, I do not much care for the place I live mainly because the people are a miserable lot..." and he went on to explain what he found wrong. The story tells you nothing about the places where the two live, but a lot about themselves. |
| Lady Griffin | I have posted on another forum re this matter of attitudes when out of one's nest,The ability to laugh at oneself is most important and not to take constructive criticism too seriously or be too thin skinned.
LG
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| noel | If I can return to the original thread, with every day things seem to be at best not improving.
I think even Americans are now questioning the wisdom of declaring war on a non agressor.
I don't have any answers. It's difficult to know how to deal with evil people sice as Bin Laden.
Certainly if he's ever found shooting would be too good for him. |
| Sandieh | [:(]War doesn't determine who is right, war determines who is left. [:(] |
| noel | And to add to it, 11 Iraqi policemen shot dead this morning, by of course the gun happy American soldiers. What must this do to the morale of those Iraqi's who are trying to work with the occupying forces. |
| noel | A leaked CIA document today has said there is no sign of any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. No traces of nuclear or biological weapons.
How good do Bush and Blair look now. |
| Bill Rigby | Noel, the Bush Administration refuses to publicly admit there are no WMDs, but maintains stupidly (so what's new?) that not finding any does not mean there aren't any!
The UN refuses to pull Bush's irons out of the fire, though yesterday on page 24 of the local paper was a report that a White House official who wishes to remain anonymous is quoted as saying that Bush is now prepared to hand over poltical power to the UN. Chirac in his UN speech stated that the military power ahould remain under US command, but that the political power should be vested in the UN. Also yesterday, Putin at Camp David told Bush the same thing, in spite of Bush's cajoling and bribes.
US foreign policy is in ruins, the economy is worse than ever in spite of the reassuring noises from the Right, civil liberties are under attack and we are headed for the greatest deficit in history and a massive national debt, expected to reach $14 trillion by 2005. In short, we are in deep doo doo and getting deeper with a president and Administration so dumb they should be in the Deaf and Dumb Society (my apolgies to the handicapped). Imagine, reducing taxation of the rich (a $ millionnaire will get a tax break of $93,500, a family earning $50,000 will get less than $200! Go figure!) while asking for an additional $87 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan of which $67 billion is for the military who already have an annual budget of $480 billion! Suggest a single payer health care system costing $5 billion and the richest nation in the world says "we can't afford it!". As I said, go figure! |
| noel | Well said Bill. On this side of the pond Tony Blair is facing his biggest challenge yet. The Labour Party Conference starts tomorrow at Bournemouth, he has a negative popularity of -29 his credibility is in ruins, 50% of the electorate thinks he should go now. His policies on Foundation Hospitals and University Top up fees are hated by members of his party members . Taxation is a major factor now, rocketing council taxes, increased NH contributions, petrol tax, numerous stealth taxes too many to list. Labour have just lost a safe seat in a by-election for the first time since 1987.
He's in a mess yet still he says he did the right thing in invading pre-emptively Iraq.
The man clearly is never wrong. He is a great orator, no doubt he will give a resounding speech at the conference.
Yet there is no credible opposition. Says a lot for Charles Kennedy and Ian Duncan Smith. |
| Bill Rigby | What is astonishing, Noel, is the hubris of both Blair and Bush as they both maintain, all evidence to the contrary, that they and only they were right! The key to Blair, it seems to me, is that he has tried to do a "Clinton" in the UK, meaning implmenting a centralist policy that if anything is what the Republicans/Tories should be doing if they were not so ideologically driven to absurd policies that harken back to the 19th C. Clinton has been called 'the best Republican president for decades" and not for nothing!
What gets me is that being Bush's lapdog has no percentage; the population here could not care less about the UK or Blair. The myth that Blair could have a beneficial influence on Bush is so much hogwash it smacks of wilfull deceit. The obvious fact is that this Administration will carry out the neocon 'New American Century' plan to dominate the world militarily, including the overturning of all regimes they do not like, and that includes any that aspire to popular government with social programs. We are indeed back to the 19th C. and since we have no historic sense of interest are fated to make the same errors which brought about regulation of corporations and legislation to curb the power of the immensely rich.
I agree that Blair is very quick on his feet and able to respond to any question more or less plausibly; the more the pity he cannot be his own man, but plays second fiddle to a moron! |
| Lady Griffin | I agree wholeheartedly with the use of the word "Hubris" as applied to these two gentlemen.It was a word that W.J.Downer, my Classics teacher at Balshaws, was keen that we learned the meaning of very early in our studies.
LG |