| Mediums and belief. |
| noel | I watched a BBC2 program last night aboutthe work mediums do and communicating with the dead. The program was a bit inconclusive, generally the feedback through the medium is vague and general, like "I can see a man, he says you've changed your hair". Rather than " your husband Joe says you look well " etc.
I left the program unconvinced one way or another. I would love to believe we can communicate with the dead. I'd love to think my parents were waiting for me . Does anyone have any strong views one way or the other about this subject? |
| Hayleypink | i am a medium/clairvoyant and give maybe 10 - 20 phone readings a week. many are returning clients. i give as much percific information as i can. but like any trade some people are more advanced than some, and we all have to start somewhere. i would not say i am an expert, but i give better readings than i did a year ago. |
| noel | Not sure what the difference is Hayley, as a medium do you actually hear voices? Did you see last night's show? Do you have to be gifted with a 6th sense or can you acquire one? |
| LDunlop76 | Noel, I watched most of that show last night. I was sceptical about most of the mediums shown - the information was so general, nothing specific, jumping on any nod from the client, conveniently glossing over things mentioned which were patently wrong. However I was impressed by the hairdresser bloke - his insights seemed very accurate and he wouldn't use his gift professionally, if I remember rightly, didn't want to profit from it.
It would be very nice to believe totally in this, but....
Convince us, Hayley - is it the spirit world or you picking up on energies from the client? |
| skitzy | When my mum died suddenly in 1985, about 3 people in the space of a week said "you must read Doris Stoke's books, you'll get a lot of comfort from them" I managed to find one & couldn't put it down, since then Im a firm believer.
Eileen |
| Lady Griffin | I read Doris Stokes books and Elizabeth Kubler Ross and anything else I could find in search of answers.They both have interesting insights.
Sixth Sense with Colin Fry has been on TV here for a week -I think it could be British -but it left me very unconvinced as to sincerity involving as it does vulnerable grieving folk.
However I have a deep personal belief in the existence of what I call pure spirit-surfacing on uplifting occasions.There are few doubts for me that those close who have left us have some continuing part and influence in the lives of those left behind.
There are too many inexplicable moments when we are in tune for there not to be something there.A spiritual awareness and communication .But not I feel as via a medium.
LG |
| Lady Griffin | When I say Medium I mean in a group session as shown on the Colin Fry thing acting as they do on body language.
I think that two people may well be in tune with the spiritual side on a one to one basis.Dunno!It's a big topic.
LG
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| Lady Griffin | I do so agree with you Sandieh about the sixth sense and opening it up.Many never seem able to do that and miss out on so much.
LG |
| Lady Griffin | Thanks Sandieh .You added the site just after I posted.
LG |
| noel | One of the people on the show had an out of body experience where his heart stopped for several minutes. He claimed to have been in a corridor with his mother smiling. His father (both dead) was also there but the look on his face said he had to return to the living world. Makes the hair on me neck prickle. I have listened to many James Byrne's ( local medium) shows and not been convinced. He was one of those "genralising"
though he learnt his art in the Christian Science Church. Where do these churches fit into the scope of things?
It's unfair to ask Haley to take part, we are intefering with her professional life, in my opinion anyway. |
| Lady Griffin | I do agree Noel.I see Hayley as being one pathway for people to learn about their spiritual side.
There are always paths there.
LG |
| LDunlop76 | I read Elisabeth Kubler-Ross's autobiography and it was fascinating stuff, though I did feel she was hoodwinked by charlatans at one stage of her life - she as good as admits as much herself in the book.
There are some pretty convincing accounts of re-incarnation from India, though I'm not sure I believe most past life accounts - the ones where they're Mary Queen of Scots, never some poor crofting woman!
Near death experiences..... is the experience of the tunnel and then the bright light a real one or a function of brain activity when oxygen levels are depleted? Whether it's real or not, it must be a comforting experience "on the way out". No one who's been through it fears death afterwards.
I was curious to know of Hayley whether she gets the messages she does actually from the departed spirits or whether the client gives off energies in some way which pass on information they maybe weren't even aware of themselves. The link Sandieh posted explains some of it, but it would be interesting to know from someone who has the talent to pick up on these things. However, if the rest of you think it's unfair to discuss it here, I can always talk with Hayley next time I see her. Not having any abilities in this direction myself, I vacillate between belief and scepticism, depending what I've been reading or viewing! There is definitely something in what Lady G writes about pure spirit - links in with what Jung wrote about us all being buds off the collective consciousness. |
| Lady Griffin | I agree with LD about Kubler Ross and just picked out the bits I wanted to read-but just like trappings and show and bigotry have crept into a simple message of caring for others,I think the same thing has happened here.Some people need to be convinced in other ways than by their own inner feelings.Hence the need for miracles.
I felt it was a privilege to be able to be with a loved one right to the end and would never fear to do it again.
There is so much to be learned. |
| Lady Griffin | I always like to read some of the stories that have surfaced through the unshakeable beliefs of people like Arthur Conan Doyle.
The story of the Cottingley?fairies is one.Absolutely beautiful fairy photos which were so convincing at the time to many.And they are lovely despite the deception.
LG |
| Bill Rigby | Kubler-Ross bought the house a friend of mine lived in in Scottsdale, AZ. She is now in a wheel chair and in my opinion as crazy as a coot! Her shtick was to tell people what they wanted to hear, but she undoubtedly did good in the US in her appeal for hospices.
The 'medium' method is know as 'cold reading' and can be done by anyone with sensitivity and practise; you look for the signs by asking questions and providing vague answers that those who are so eager to beleive will pick on and announce they know who the 'medium' means... it was their father, mother or whatever, from this the 'medium' knows there is at least one believer and concentrates on that person by throwing out a feeler. If it does not work, try another; they vagueness is always a get out.
There are undoubtedly 'mediums' who have conned themselves in to a form of 'sincere lying' and believe they can 'communicate' with the dead or have 'second sight'.
The Edwards and Van Praags are consummate con men and make their money from the credulous and gullible; note they never actually make money directly from their 'abilities' as seers, fortune tellers or predictors of the future. Follow ups show their 'predictions' are as good as chance and in some cases actually worse!
Think for a tiny minute and you will realize no one ever came back to tell the tale! The 'near death' experiences are about as valid as child abuse allegations by 'therapists' derived from what they call "repressed childhood memories"!
The fact is people believe what they want believe in order to support the finality of their existence; we die and that is it, as far as I am concerned; why kid oneself?
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| Bill Rigby | By the way, what is 'percific' information? Is this mediumistic argot? |
| Martin | quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rigby
By the way, what is 'percific' information? Is this mediumistic argot?
I think it's pijin English![:)] |
| Lady Griffin | I don't believe I'm kidding myself about my inner soul.I know the body dies and I don't believe people come back in the flesh but I do believe that one part of that person lives on deep inside those who are left just like children inherit the characteristics of their parents.
I feel sorry for those who have no spiritual awareness as I said before -that's where we hold the caring and loving part of us and the enjoyment of the rich experiences around us in life.
That's all from me
LG |
| Kath smith | My experience is weird.
A maiden great aunt died when I was 7 years old, every time anything 'bad' happened I saw a swirly cloud near the doorway into my mum's kitchen and always knew everything was going to be OK because Aunty Alice had been to visit.
I was told at 16 years old that it was likely I would have to have help to have children as I have endometriosis.
After being married for 10 months I thought I might be pregnant, I struggled to convince my GP that I had all the signs, he did several tests and they kept coming back negative.
For some reason I'd told my dad about Aunty's visits earlier that week and he'd also had the same experience.
I was sitting in my lounge after being told that it was likely that I had been pregnant but the baby had died and I would probably 'loose' it soon,I was feeling very sorry for myself waiting for my husband to get home, (14 years ago we didn't have mobile phones so I couldn't contact him)
when the familiar swirl appeared in my lounge. I also got the sense that Martin my cousin in Austrailia was in danger at the same time.
Minutes later, the phone rang, my mum told me that Martin had meningitis and that my Aunty P was on her way to see him as soon as she got a flight. I hadnt told my mum about what i was going through as I hadnt want to worry her.
I also spoke to my dad and told him only that Aunty Alice had been that evening to our house and that I had felt she was leaving us to go to Martin before mum had told me about him being ill.
several weeks later Aunty P told us Martin had asked who Aunty Alice was!
He had only met her a couple of times when he was small and couldnt remember her.
And my daughter is now 13 years old and she sees an old lady who fits Aunty Alice's description sitting on her bed sometimes. though neither me nor my dad have seen her since. |
| Kath smith | I have also read Doirs Stokes books years ago and found it a comfort to hope that maybe people who have died can get in touch.
By the way, I think Hayley meant specific, Bill R
Also after my grandma Kathleen (Aunty Alice's youngest sister) died i had a dream about all the sisters and sisters in law of their generation sitting in the front room at the house my gran and aunty Alice had shared for years. They were all dressed up,as ladies of their generation did with hats on and matching accessories and were waiting for someone to arrive. One of them asked where Alice was, meaning my other Great Aunty Alice, my gran's brother's wife who was another mum/grandma to all of the family having never had children of her own.
'Oh she's not coming yet she's got too much left to do but Kathleen's coming soon' a voice said. Then a hearse drew up outside the house.
Aunty Alice died 10 years later at 91 years of age, a much loved member of our extended family, she got us through all sorts of scrapes and was a fountain of wisdom until her sudden death, if you can call death at 91 sudden.
At my Grandmas funeral a few days later the courtege drove past the house and paused for a second outside I was too scared to look at the window in case I saw the ladies inside!
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| William R | I have many instances where I could say, "I believe" but as a realist, I will not burden you with my "happenings" . This is neither the time nor the place for my disclosures. Possibly there is someone out there who knows what I am hinting at, and they will be able to draw their own conclusions. In a crude way, If you can`t understand it, Don`t knock it. Cheerio, Bill. |
| William R | Lady G, I see that I have reached 398 now, soon be with the elite with over 400. Maybe another star from Martin. William R. |
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rigby
The 'near death' experiences are about as valid as child abuse allegations by 'therapists' derived from what they call "repressed childhood memories"!
I would beg to differ here. Near death experiences have been medically validated in that monitors recorded the cessation of pulse, breathing and other vital signs. In medical terms these people did "come back from the dead". Whether their mental experiences while in this state are a function of low oxygen levels on the brain or glimpses of an after-life is up to the individual to decide. For me the jury's out.
And please be careful when criticising therapists who uncover repressed childhood memories. Yes, there have been cases when the therapist has been less than ethical and has guided the client into recovering false memories, but there are also cases where traumatic memories had genuinely been suppressed, to come to consciousness later on - these memories have been proved to be correct by independent corroborating evidence and the therapist has helped the client come to terms with their abuse. |
| noel | I lay in bed this morning, attempting to feel the prescence of my dead parents. ( My wife has always said that trying to communicate with me was akin to communicating with the dead. What's wrong with you" she asked. " How come mediums can communicate with the dead but not me?" I said. "You're not a medium" she said quick as a flash. "You're an extra-large" |
| noel | Bill you are obviously an atheist with your beliefs. I'm a kind of unsure of my beliefs.
Quite possibly we do die "and that's that" but how does that explain the presence of spiritual happenings? |
| William R | Noel, some long time ago,in the fifties, my late wife`s mother was taken ill with a mystery illness, and was admitted to Wigan Infirmary. In the middle of the night Margaret shook me awake and said she had just heard her mother calling her name. No telephones then, but in the morning we got word that her mother died at exactly the time she woke me, and the last word she said was Margaret`s name. Like I say, if you can`t explain it, don`t knock it. When Margaret died last year there was an overpowering smell of freesias in the house after she was taken away. there were no flowers in the house, but grand daughter Caroline said simply that Grandma had been to say goodbye. Later that day, there was the most beautiful sunset, to which Caroline said, that was Grandma telling us she had arrived in Heaven. Some one knows how difficult it is for me to write this, because they, like me, can`t find an explanation either. Why do we go to where her ashes rest to tell her all the big events taking place? We can`t find and explanation. There must be one, but is it something we are not yet able to understand, but will one day? From over the Pennines, William R. |
| Martin | This topic reminds me of a poem by an unknown author
Do not stand at my grave and weep;
I am not there. I do not sleep.
I am a thousands winds that blow.
I am the diamond glints on snow.
I am the sunlight on ripened grain.
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you awaken in the morning's hush
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circled flight.
I am the soft stars that shine at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry;
I am not there. I did not die.
author unknown - commonly attributed to several sources
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| noel | Lovely poem Martin. William my friend's dad died at age 42 with cancer. Just before he died he started to talk to his dead mother saying words like "hang on mum, I'm coming".
I'm not knocking anything, I have a totally open mind about the subject, preferring if anything to believe in an after life. |
| LDunlop76 | I've never had an experience of feeling contact with someone who's died myself, but I know far too many people who have to dismiss it. Like you, Bill, I've known people who've heard their name being called by a loved one and found later that that precise time was the moment of death. My mother-in-law and my grandmother both "felt" their deceased husband's presence in the room with them a few days after the death. Our son was 12 months old when my husband's father died. When he was carried into the room where his grandad had died a few hours earlier, he babbled away to his grandad's chair, just like he had "chatted" to his grandad when he was alive. Taken back in there an hour or two later, he was silent.... and never "chatted" to that chair again. Made us wonder whether his grandfather's spirit lingered in the room long enough to say goodbye to who was, at that time, his only grandchild.
Now that's just three instances from my immediate family. I could recount many others from friends and family. I can't explain it, but there is something going on. |
| Lady Griffin | I said I wouldn't say anything else and there's lots I could say-but I believe that death is a journey just like birth is a journey and there is no doubt in my mind that someone turns up to help us on the way-not up but on.Even if it may be in the subconscious and not in reality.
LG
That's a lovely poem-sums it up.
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| noel | I spoke with my neighbour yesterday, he is a firm christian. In his eyes there is no doubt, any follower of Christ who dies immediately enters Heaven. There is no limbo, no waiting outside the gates. True or not it certainly gives him a good outlook on life, something LG touched on. But still I have not answered my concerns, why can a medium contact the dead but not me, why is it always somebody else who has witnessed strange spiritual occurences and not me.? |
| Martin | quote:
Originally posted by noel
I spoke with my neighbour yesterday, he is a firm christian. In his eyes there is no doubt, any follower of Christ who dies immediately enters Heaven. There is no limbo, no waiting outside the gates. True or not it certainly gives him a good outlook on life,
It's an easy thing to say that MY way is the correct way, or the only true way. Upto now I haven't seen any proof that any of the belief systems on this planet are based on anything other than imagination. |
| noel | I think if it gives you an inner peace in this world you can't really knock it as William says. Problem is with me I don't have inner peace. |
| Lady Griffin | This topic follows along the lines of the Agnosticism one we did and just as it was there I think that two different subjects are being mixed up.The topic of mediums and communication with those who have passed on ,and the one of personal beliefs and spirituality.
They are quite separate studies and muddling them together causes confusion.
Spirituality not Spiritualism.
LG
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| noel | Yes you are right Linda, having said that most of our topics tend to wander around .
Having never had any communication with the "dead" I have had dreams that came true. Or am I wandering again. |
| Bill Rigby | Noel, one does need to be an atheist to recognize nonsense! The idea that there are two entities in one body is an ancient belief, but we know from scientific work on brain function that Descartes was wrong; the brain is all we have and it dies when we do! Steven Pinker has written an excellent survey of uptodate research findings on the brain in the context of the principal theme of the book, human nature. "The Blank Slate" is well worth reading to debunk the superstitions, misunderstandings and pseudoscience that envelops so many unfounded, but persistent, beliefs.
research |
| Lady Griffin | Have had first hand experience of the presence of telepathy between two people.
Anybody remember the Piddingtons?They made quite a stir at the time.
By the way Noel the latest explanation for the defeat of the All Blacks is the fact that their jerseys were too skin tight.
Huh!!
LG |
| Bill Rigby | The Great Houdini was a friend of Conan Doyle and no matter how much he was able to show the author of Sherlock Holmes the trickery and scams practsied by 'mediums', Doyle always had a rationalization; in the end, Houdinis gave up.
As I wrote elsewhere, people beleive what they want to believe. I should add, but that does not make it so! |
| Lady Griffin | I'm not an atheist and I think I can recognise nonsense.Anyway it all depends what you mean by an atheist or God for that matter.Haven't read any great books on the matter but cogito ergo sum.
LG |
| Lady Griffin | Glad that you added and that does not make it so.
LG |
| Hayleypink | sorry only just come back to this topic. i hear and see things. depending on how strong my connection is with someones spirit gudie. i mostly do reading on the phone, so i read soley on my messages from spirit as i cant see body language!!! also i read deeply, i dont give people superficial things like they have two dogs, i help them with deep issues and spiritual stuff which doesnt relate to body language.
crikey!!!! cant believe that i am on martins forum talking about this stuff! where i have a spiritual/mystical forum and we often dont speak about these things!!! |
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by noel
But still I have not answered my concerns, why can a medium contact the dead but not me, why is it always somebody else who has witnessed strange spiritual occurences and not me.?
You're not the only one, Noel - I've never had contact with the dead either. S'not fair, is it?
As for science.....
[url]http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/discoveries.html[/url]
[}:)]
I'm keeping an open mind. |
| Lady Griffin | There's a clairvoyant in Henderson.It will be worth the money to see what she says to me and I 'll tell you later.
If she tells me I've turned down the chance of a diamond mine in Angola recently,I'll begin to wonder.
I'll keep an open mind and watch my body language.
LG |
| noel | quote:
Originally posted by Lady Griffin
There's a clairvoyant in Henderson.It will be worth the money to see what she says to me and I 'll tell you later.
If she tells me I've turned down the chance of a diamond mine in Angola recently,I'll begin to wonder.
I'll keep an open mind and watch my body language.
LG
LOL good one Linda. And Wigan Linda, I just think we need to concentrate harder maybe? |
| Hayleypink | be yourself be open and you will be read as she will be able to pick up on your energies....if you go in thinking she wont read you, she probably wont. |
| Lady Griffin | I won't block anything deliberately but we'll see.Have always wanted to try this-there are no tarot cards-I've been told.First time for anything.
LG |
| Lady Griffin | Noel I found this quotation from Gertrude Stein.
There ain't no answer
There ain't going to be any answer
There never has been any answer
There's the answer.
LG |
| noel | Just wondeing waht the question was Linda<vbg> |
| Hayleypink | lol |
| Martin | quote:
Originally posted by noel
Just wondeing waht the question was Linda<vbg>
There aint no question! |
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by noel
And Wigan Linda, I just think we need to concentrate harder maybe?
I dunno, Noel. I think maybe some folks' brains aren't wired up the right way to pick up on these things. Maybe if we exercise our right brains (intuitive and artistic hemisphere) more, we can build up the required neural connections? Or maybe we should resign ourselves to living with minds like steel traps? [;)] |
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by noel
Just wondeing waht the question was
Dunno - but I expect the answer is 42! [:o)] |
| Lady Griffin | You folk have to make up your own questions.I only do answers even if there aren't any answers.
Sorry -light headed this morning.I'll try to find anothere obscure quotation.
LG |
| Lady Griffin | I did a unit in Philosophy once.It went to my head!
Here's another found on European gravestones evidently.
"I was not,I have been,I am not,I do not mind."
Oh dear-maybe I'd better go back into hibernation.
LG |
| Lady Griffin | quote:
Originally posted by Hayleypink
be yourself be open and you will be read as she will be able to pick up on your energies.
Asolutely spot on Hayley.
Older lady a few years younger than me.I didn't say anything for 10 mins -she held a small angel broach that I've worn for years.Told me lots that I thought she might as she obviously knew straight away that I was on my own.
Can't say a lot as it's personal but she re-assured me about many things.
All I can say is while it's obviously a reading of "energies "thing it's extremely therapeutic and probably depends a great deal on the clairvoyant involved.
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| Hayleypink | awwwi am so pleased you gained a lot through your reading xxx |
| Lady Griffin | Thanks a lot Hayley.
[8D] |
| noel | quote:
Originally posted by LDunlop76
quote:
Originally posted by noel
Just wondeing waht the question was
Dunno - but I expect the answer is 42! [:o)]
I think that's an excellent answer Linda.
Now for the question, What is the meaning of life.......[;)]
Nice one Linda I enjoyed that. |
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by Lady Griffin
Am getting confused by the two Lindas.Sometimes I think I'm writing to myself-
LG
You're not the only one! (There's a pun in there somewhere.....) I try to refer to you as Lady G on here to reduce confusion. Still, it's not as bad as at work, where we have 3 Paulines and 3 Paulas! |
| Lady Griffin | Am getting confused by the two Lindas.Sometimes I think I'm writing to myself-
LG |
| Alan Marsden | Quotation;
'I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. '-- Galileo |
| Bill Rigby | "If your own reason tells you something is untrue, then do not believe it" Gautama Buddha |
| Spitfire | Until each and every one of us actally die, we will never know what-if anything- lies `on the other side`. As far as I can tell, nobody has ever come back yet to tell us either! If that makes me sound like an unbeliever, then I probibly am. Sorry Haley, but we can`t all be the same - can we?
However if the sum of man`s inginuity to date is to produce computers that cannot hold a candle to the power of the human brain, then my scepticism wavers a little. Common sense must tell us (or so I think) that we didn`t appear or evolve, by accident. |
| Spitfire | Have just read my last post and can only say that I know what I mean. LOL |
| LDunlop76 | Made sense to me..... sort of! <g> |
| Karen | And me ..sort of!!
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