| Any one feel like me? |
| noel | I've been wandering around the town this week looking at the developments around the perimeters in particular housing. In 1979 I left Farington as Leyland became the headquarters of the CLNTD .
Returning 9 years later ( because my wife missed the place too much) I thought maybe the developments would have been completed. But no, even now there is a developpment of houses on School Lane Farington, Croston Rd "Farington Park" opposite The fields at the Gas Works in Lostock Hall are being built on. Down Hall Lane, more houses. The former Royal Ordnance is having a whole new town built, 2000 houses I believe. Dawson Lane is unrecognisable now almost from how most would remember it. What I am getting too, maybe I'm a luddite I don't know but when is our council going to stop green land sites being developed on.? When we have no more space to move? When our cars have to queue up to get off our drives? And why do we continue to allow immigrants into the country, in particular those with no rights to be here. Why can't we just put a sign up saying "Sorry, country full."
This may sound not a very phylanthropic approach but how much longer can we continue to fill in those green spaces. Don't we owe somthing to the future generations? Ooo thank goodness, me owl's working again. Sorry I feel a bit Victor Meldrewish tonight.
[img]http://usa.venus.co.uk/weed/agifs/images83/owl.gif[/img] |
| William R | Noel, I agree with your sentiments, I find that people make allowances for us "oldies" by saying we don`t know any better. You talk about development, since the demise of the coal industry the thing has been to level the site and either build a factory or houses. Either way you need to develop the road networks, so big schemes start up for major roads to feed the factories. The factories being built are mainly electronic or associated with that industry. Now your average redundant coal miner isn`t the right sort of whizz kid for the new industries, so they have to be brought in from down south. They flog their little house in the southeast for loads of money, move here with more than enough capital, buy a modern house on one of the many estates being built, with plenty of money left over, buy a Volvo or Merc, send their kids to private schools, and grumble about the number of unemployed littering the town. We have more night clubs, modernised pubs with strange names, eating places, you name it its here. We now have a culture who don`t eat at home, go to Meadowhall for the London Stores, travel up and down the motorway to see their friends, but we still have no real jobs. Everywhere now has to have a gym close by, and houses with swimming pools. Every night during the week the roads in the town are gridlocked with commuter traffic moving around the town as they leave for home. We have a growth in Travel Inns for casual visitors, all with the obligatory sauna and gym. The youth of the town don`t stand a chance of a decent job, so they have to go on "courses" to make it look as though they are gainfully employed, and end up with no future. So you see Noel, I feel like you. Don`t go to the hospitals here unless you are able to converse in some obscure language, you`ll have trouble understanding what`s wrong with you. Mind you, I believe Sheffield is a lot worse. Cheers, Bill. |
| noel | Tonight I read in the Post that 635 houses are having planning application considered to go on the Whittingham Hospital site. Another mini village. Where will it all end. |
| Lady Griffin | I often wonder who will fight for our respective countries should the need arise.Which side will they support!
Didn't dare mention cricket!!! |
| Robbo | I have the same worries. My Girlfriend was at Blackburn College when the WTC got destroyed. The next day at collage they 'ethnic minority' had posters of Bin Laden and singing anti-American and anti-British songs. Not only that, but they was burning posters of the Union Jack and the Stars and Stripes. It caused outrage with the white students and a riot started.
The police were called in and the 'ethnic minority' said that the 'white-ies' had attacked them for no reason and was targeting them out of revenge for the destruction of WTC! Funnily enough, no one was expelled or charged with the incident. It was brushed under the carpet, almost as if the school council was scared to stand up to the ‘ethnic minority’ even though their behaviour was bordering treason!
The above really pi*sed me off! How can you not ask yourself the question, how dare they come and live in this county and be educated and have a decent living at the expense of others, burn our flag and worship a murderer who wants to destroy our country!?
Our government is spineless! Also did you know that a school in Southport got told by the local council to take down it's St. Georges flag on St George's day because it might offend the local 'ethnic minorities'! How pathetic and insulting is that! |
| dampslad | Dear, oh dear - what a sad lot!
So they're building on the fields (unused for anything for decades)in front of the old Lostock Hall Gas Works, on the Whittingham hospital and ROF sites. Well what do you want - ongoing dereliction?
Wiganner has a point, allowing residential development without enlarging schools and other services to cope with them. But the rest?
Would you have "your average coal miner" sitting around doing nothing at all because the pit's exhausted? Do nothing about providing jobs for today's kids and tomorrow's workers?
At least the incomers you moan about need to buy stuff, have their hair done, shoes mended, cars serviced, heating and plumbing seen to. That creates work. They even have an incentive to come to Leyland for the first time in living memory to shop at Tesco!
Too many people live in the past. So we don't plunder the earth for metal and bash it into trucks and buses any more (or not much). Well, one of the reasons the UK isn't yet suffering the kind of recession already evident in the US and threatening Germany is our low dependency on manufacturing - something that doesn't seem to have held Switzerland back over the centuries.
Stop wallowing in nostalgia and join the real world, the lot of you!
And as to Bill's mayoral parade, well at least it sounds colourful. The last Leyland Festival parade I saw a couple of years ago was pitiful.
Colin Damp
Plymouth |
| Lady Griffin | I don't think it's so much moaning but asking for a level playing field.
Just in the last week in Christchurch there has been fighting and windscreen attacking of an internecine????? nature between rival groups of Somalis.
One MP commented that they should be given a sum of money and sent home to Somalia if they wanted to continue that sort of thing.
In return the MP was told by the mayor of said city that he wasn't wanted in Christchurch if he held such views.
So much for Reason.
However I have to agree that there has been much colour added by new settlers.We have Polynesian Festivals,Dragon Boat racing,Samoan Cricket etc etc.
Peace,Brother! |
| William R | What are you suggesting, Lady G, the old adage of "Lie back and think of England" whilst it goes on? T.C.Bill |
| Lady Griffin | Don't have a clue what to say to that, Bill.
Nobody listens -it's the grey hair syndrome.
There has been much debate over here and Australia especially since the Bali bombings and a greatly needed tightening up of security in both countries.
We live in interesting times!!!
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| noel | Completely off the mark Colin. It's OK for you stuck out in the wide open spaces of America.
I think it's rather selfish to not consider what you are going to leave your descendants. Maybe you have the Bush attitude burn fossil fuels to hell with it and maybe that attitude spills over into your every day thinking but I want to leave my family a better place than the one I came into. The population of America is about 3 times that of the UK . That's a country what 3000 miles wide by 5000 miles long? You have SPACE over there. The country we decided to remain loyal to is 1000 miles approx by what, 150 wide? on average. It's a fraction of the size of the UK . We have first hand experience of the green land being decimated over the last 50 years . We have to act now. I'm sick of seeing builders applying to build 600 houses here , 800 there . It should be done by formal procedures through the council planning department not just at the whim of a property developer whose only aim is to maximise his profits. No I don't want to see areas of dereliction I agree with you there but just look at William's photos taken in 1951 of the area, and look at the same area now. Then extrapolate the next 50 years to imagine what space will be left then. Read Robbo's account of the goings on in Blackburn.
You've been away too long Colin you don't know what's happening in this country , I'm sorry I don't mean to sound rude but that's what I believe and I fully concurr with Robbo our government is spineless. Out of 30,000 asylum seekers recently 85% were found to have no grounds yet only 3,000 were returned home. Can anyone tell me why? Accepting all these immigrants is like pulling in the Trojan Horse and shutting the gates. If I were younger I would be off myself now to New Zealand. [:(!] |
| anacortesdamp | Wrong brother, Noel. Colin's still in England - Plymouth, Devon. I'm the one in the USA.
Frank Damp
48 deg 31' N, 122 deg 37' W |
| rocketmanjohn | I find it a little odd that Noel talks about loyalty to the country and yet in his last sentence states that if he were younger he would go to New Zealand. Which one is it Noel ?
I left England to get the best that I could out of life, I did a 5 year apprenticeship and 5 years in college only to find out that my pay was only 10% more than the unskilled shop floor people. Not much incentive I'm sure you would agree. Have a look around you,everything you see that has been made has been designed by an engineer, and yet the general public think that engineers drive trains or grease machines. Over here engineers are appreciated for what they are, and what they do, and get payed accordingly. Who would'nt want the best that they could get out of life ? I love England very dearly, but can't afford to live there. The anti-American remarks may have some validity, but the alternatives are'nt working either.
John
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| Lady Griffin | You'll have to stay out of Auckland then, Noel.The South Island is looking increasingly attractive, but from what I can understand this country is rapidly being sold out to the great God Mammon.
Even Young Nick's Head-the historical headland first sighted by Captain Cook's Cabin Boy has been sold to an American.Large sheepstations are going rapidly.
Bit of fuss for a while then it all dies down.
Rather like your Lands End which I'm told has gone the same way.
New Zealand is roughly the same size as UK and we do have lots of empty space but a recent documentary made partly in places like Oldham, Burnley and Vancouver has warned of future social problems if NZ doesn't watch its come one come all policy and look closely at the entry criteria.
Watch your blood pressures, chaps! |
| LDunlop76 | quote:
Originally posted by rocketmanjohn
Have a look around you,everything you see that has been made has been designed by an engineer, and yet the general public think that engineers drive trains or grease machines.
Hear, hear! My husband is an engineer, but if you tell people that they assume he mends washing machines. We all need washing machine repair guys, but there is way more to engineering than that and I wish people could appreciate that. My husband has an engineering degree, but due to the pitiful pay available in the jobs using his skills, he has moved into management. Why spend years studying if there's no reward at the end of it? |
| William R | As a retired engineer, I cannot agree more. In this country we denigrate our engineers so much that they have to leave their chosen profession to take up positions not requiring their particular skills. I was fortunate enough to be "Head hunted" into the Paper industry, which I found to be many years behind the thinking of Leylands. With the offer of promotion far beyond any at Leyland I had to forget my trade and move into something entirely different, but essential to everyday life. I couldn`t forget that I was a "Leyland trained engineer" and soon found ways to effect improvements in my field. Good, more advancement. Until I came upon a Group Director who believed that anyone who stayed in a job over four years had no ambition, I lasted ten years before a "change of management structure" was brought in, and end of job. I was immediately "head hunted" by another Company who said "We want your expert knowledge for C.P.I." This was another change in direction into Cost and Profit Improvement, a new department just started. Always I was reminded by Directors that I was "Leyland trained" and they wanted my ideas. This meant liaising with Continental engineers, who I found much respected in their country and paid accordingly. There was always an undercurrent abroad that English engineers are not prepared to work hard to survive, and were valued accordingly. We were a large Company with E.O`s from outside Britain, British E.O`s were put out to grass (early retirement) to allow for restructuring to European standards. I could go on but I`ll stop here, hoping it gives food for thought. Cheers. Bill. |
| Lady Griffin | Keep going folks-I love it.
I always remember my dad saying over 60 years ago that at LM the management were always ready to listen to and appreciate the ideas of their work force-the ones who actually did the hands on stuff- and adopt any modifications that would improve performance and product.Whether they were paid well for the successful ideas is another matter.
As for Bill's comment about remarks re no ambition because one doesn't want to necessarily become an instant part of a management team I recall being asked why I had not taken up a Head of Department position after 30 years in teaching and the assumption was again-no ambition.
Actually I said that I rather enjoyed being in the thick of the action and interacting with the students than pushing paper around and arranging endless meetings.
These days everyone wants to be a chief without climbing a few rungs of the ladder first and if possible before the age of 25.
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| LDunlop76 | Yes, there is a philosophy that the people who stick "at the coal face" are somehow less worthy than those who climb the greasy pole of promotion, without a realisation that a manager needs people to manage - we can't all be chiefs! I've spent the last 20 years in the same job because my priority was bringing up my family. Recently I applied for a promotion (which I didn't get because a more highly qualified candidate also applied) but got the distinct impression from the boss that anyone who'd stayed put for 20 years didn't have the necessary drive. Sigh! Actually it's worked out for the best, because a long-term colleague who was promoted 12 months ago is deeply regretting the hassles management involves and is wanting to go part-time! Think I'd rather be happy than rich! (No ambition! LOL!)
One of my husband's reasons for going into management was that he was sure he could do a better job than some of the "Richard Craniums" in authority over him. In engineering management, it's a big advantage to have an engineering background, but you'd be surprised how many managers have an unrelated qualification and only got their job because they had an MBA and the gift of the gab. It all falls apart when there's some major engineering headache to sort out and they haven't got the first clue! |
| Lady Griffin | Do I really feel homesick!!!!! |
| LDunlop76 | It's pretty much the same round here. Every spare bit of land seems to be given over to housing developments.... which always seem to be three and four bedroomed detached executive style places..... with no thought as to the consequences. I mean - 4 bedroom houses are family homes, so people with children will move in, but are any extra spaces created in local schools? NOPE! Where are these kids supposed to be educated? There was much protest when 32 such houses were built on a farmer's field directly across from our primary school, but the council still gave planning permission. The result was that kids living in those houses got priority on grounds of proximity, whereas kids from a hamlet about a mile and a half from school found themselves without a place, despite their siblings going to that school. The only school able to accept them was the C of E school a mile or 2 in the other direction - and not every parent is keen on church schools. I suppose it was lucky there WAS another school not fully subscribed within a reasonable distance. |
| Lady Griffin | So much the same here.New Zealand has a low population by world standards and is a beautiful country but the inflow of settlers from Asia and the Middle Eastern areas especially has been escalating rapidly in recent times and what's more they seem to be all gravitating to Auckland.
A few years ago I could walk to the shops in peace and quiet past a lovely vineyard where there were pheasants and all kinds of birdlife.Now there are units galore on the land and I'm in danger from elderly Chinese riding their bikes down the footpath and hoons on skateboards.
Most of the Apple orchards have disappeared and the Airforce land where we lived for some years is being turned over to State housing or what the great minds call pepper-potting as the air force is a joke.
It's a prime area all along the Waitemata Harbour.Same story -lessons not learned and intolerable pressure on social services.
Still it's not PC to complain.However I do get sick of being constantly asked for help to use plastic cards at the money machine and fill in forms at the post office-another joke.
I've now got to the stage of pleading insanity when asked or indicated to.I don't think you need to worry too much as the problems are moving in this direction.
Another Meldrew.
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| William R | Linda, I had a friend whose wife was a teacher in a place called Heckmondwyke near to Bradford looking after 8/9yr olds. In a class of 32 she had one English child. Indian, Chinese,Asiatics, Norwegian and Finns. They generally came not knowing basic English, and were collected from school by similar parents or the "mosque-man" who only asked "Alright no/yes" and went on their way to be taught by their own people at night. In that area there are taxis which are owned and driven by ethnic groups solely for ethnic groups. Its very much a no-go area now. P.C.ness tells me I should leave it there, but you get the picture. I`ll not mention the shops. T.C. William R. |
| Lady Griffin | Maybe I should stop there as I get my dander up re P.C. but did you read the story of an Australian Kindergarten where they refuse to have a visit from Father Christmas because of the ethnic mix of the kiddies and instead are having a clown to hand out the goodies! |
| anacortesdamp | Bill:
I guess it isn't a new problem. 20 years or more ago, my sister taught kindergarten (entry class) at a school in Preston. Over 80 percent of the kids were Pakistani or Indian. She had such a hard time keeping order that she went to evening classes to learn the Gujarati language, so she could at least say "Sit down, be quiet, hang your coat up", etc.
In this part of the US, we have a significant population of Mexicans who originally came in as itinerant farm labourers, picking the flowers and fruit that grow here in such abundance. They liked it so much that they stayed. The local schools have quite an overhead doing "EASL" (English as a second language) classes so the children of these families can get through school. I guess we're fortunate in that there isn't a demand (yet) for a completely parallel curriculum in Spanish.
Frank Damp
Anacortes, Wa, USA |
| William R | Lady G, you were quite right to "air" your feelings as you did, when we had the annual Mayors Parade this year I was a bit taken aback when following the Mayor in the parade was a massive Chinese Dragon accompanied by clashing cymbals and members of the Chinese community with banners and national dress. Shock horror, round the corner came the Temple Drums of the Indian Community, all bare chested and shining and beating merry heck on the drums, what next? the German contingent from Schwabish Gmund (true) with their Drum Band. Each competing to be louder than the other. The rest of the parade was to say the least typical of the area, loads of kids walking along doing nothing in particular and looking bored with it. The parade used to be a demonstration of the town products with firms having their own floats to show them off, worth watching. The last time we had a decent band here it was of the Gurkha Rifles, and thats a year or two ago, what`s happened to us? Cheers Bill. |
| Lady Griffin | The next Preston Guild will be interesting then, Bill.Hope I'm around for it.
The last one I saw was the 1952 one.
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| noel | What is concerning me, just as much as the loss of green land is "what cricket team" do these immigrants support?
We are told not to be racist which I have strived not to be, but then you see militant fundamentalists supporting the overthrow of the christian world. Who are we allowing into our countries? |
| William R | Hi,I`ve just read the posting by Lady G saying L.M.L.were always happy to listen to suggestions. Right.When we joined the Staff at the Tank Factory we had to sign a document saying that any sugestion we made for improvements or designs we did, or drawings etc were to be regarded as the property of the Company, and any Patent Rights were to be taken out by the Company, we forfeited any claim for reward. Now, a Company who shall be nameless had a Suggestion Scheme, and the boxes were emptied each week by a clerk from the Employment Dept. The contents were examined by a person in Employment and any which looked good were passed to the Chief Draughtsman. If he thought they had merit he would enter the details in the Drawing Register of work in progress which conveniently had gaps in its entries some time previous. The person submitting the Suggestion duly received a token award, thanking them but stating that the suggestion was already "in hand" in the Drawing Office, (sorry you were too late) kind of thing. I can`t say which firm but yes you do find little hangman`s nooses in with a name attached, or a canteen sandwich of doubtful vintage. Been there, got the Tee shirt, Cheers,Bill. |
| Alan Marsden | Leyland Motors... hmmmm! A sad story there alright, controversial too!
. Mid, fifties,Leyand manufactured trucks and busses and were apparently a top vehicle manufacturer. AEC,Guy,Seddon,Atkinson,Dennis,Mawdesley,Foden,Scammell,Albion,Bedford, Ford,Sentinel Morriss-Commercial,Commer,Bristol, come to mind as competitors, do Ford still make commercial vehicles in Britain ? I think the others have gone to the wall! . Yet,one was often told, 'Leyland knows best', I have even heard, "there's the best way do things, and then there's the Leyland way", implication being, we know better than the best !
I suppose one only need look around to see if that statement had merit!
Yet, it's awarm feeling one gets when one does see the occasional Leyland product plodding along the lanes in Barbados,Falklands,Greece, but not many these days remain in Europe and certainly not working vehicles.
We know that the bungling of the British Goverment did't help, but it would appear that Leyland could not help itself either !
I recall going to work across the moss in the mid seventies, bulldozers at work building the new test chassis centre, likewise the new engine test centre at Farrington, public money being poured in to what one hoped was a worthwhile project. Homeward bound I often spoke over a pint in the 'Railway' at Midge Hall with the owner of a local trucking company, and after travelling about the UK I had noticed on the motorways the increase in the number of trucks of European manufacture I asked why this was so. " I am getting rid of my Leyland vehicles as fast as possible, they are not reliable and cost more to purchase and operate" was his answer!
On one occasion ,I was in the Leyland factory on business at on a friday at approx 11 am. and I noticed machine operators sat in groups playing cards ! I asked my what was going on, the reply was, " they've dome their quota for the week, so now they can relax !"
I guess this should get the ball rolling, so I'll quit for now !
Alan M
( "Even if you'r on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there " -Will Rogers )
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| noel | A friend of mine who was an engineer in some authority at Leyland Motors blamed the introduction of American engines which were far cheaper but only a fraction of the durability and reliability. I know nothing about LM but am passing this on . |
| Flagmarket | Re; the fact that 'green zones' are now being used for housing. I think the same situation applies all over the world. The population is exploding and people need somewhere to live. Although here in the USA there is still ample room to expand, there are still the people who object to anyone moving in to new housing 'in their neighborhood'. Just where do these folks expect the to live ??? |
| Spitfire | Alan, I seems strange that you mention witnessing the laying of the foundations of the test track, when this very week public meetings are being arranged to discuss how many houses/schools etc. should be built on it when it closes next March. Full circle or what? |
| magicman | 'Richard Craniums' - I laughed til I cried lololol - damned good one LD. |
| LDunlop76 | Sadly I can't claim that as my own - I've heard a few others use it before me! |
| steve.w | as a newbie to this forum i must say that some of these threads certainly take you places you dont expect. we start on planning and greendbelt, through immigration policy and the defence of nationhood to engineering and end up with puns.... lifes rich tapestry and all that i suppose.
i dont quite know where to start the response - so i will go and ponder the issues for a while methinks
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| noel | They tend to intermingle Steve, sometimes the subject matter gets totally lost. It's like starting a conversation at work on a particular subject, somebody interjects and bingo, the thread moves off at a tangent. It's the old "send reinforcement's we're going to advance " syndrome. ( becomes "send 3and 4 pence,(3s4d) we're going to a dance") |
| Alan Marsden | Spitfire, thanks for that bit of information !
One thing about the UK, they can certainly fill up the green spaces, houses everywhere, and prices such that many use over 100 % mortgages, imagine that, borrowing more than the house is worth, so that is what all these years of developing a society has achieved !
The part that I find hard to understand is what do all these housholds do for a living, manufacturing is always diminishing, the wealth creating industries are run down, surely not everyone can work at McDonalds !
Can everyone become an entrepreneur , maybe they can, all selling useless articles to their neighbour !
Alan M
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| Spitfire | Alan, You say you find it hard to understand where all the people come from in order to fill these new properties. Well - you are certainly not on your own on that score. It doesn`t matter how many they build, none ever appear to remain empty. |
| noel | quote:
Originally posted by Spitfire
Alan, You say you find it hard to understand where all the people come from in order to fill these new properties. Well - you are certainly not on your own on that score. It doesn`t matter how many they build, none ever appear to remain empty.
I have a theory that they are probably builders and plasterers/plumbers.[;)] |
| LDunlop76 | Where do all the people come from? Well, it's said that though the population isn't rising much, the number of households is increasing due to the higher divorce rate. OK, I can follow that argument, but why are all the new build houses 3 and 4 bedroom executive houses? Surely if the divorce rate is on the up, it's pokey flats for all the dads who've had to leave the family home (the fairness of which is a whole other potential thread!) which are required - surely no separated couple can afford to run TWO family-sized homes? |
| Spitfire | Lesley, Your posting could open up a new can of worms (as you hinted at). By coincidence it was on the TV this evening that the population explosion will far outstrip the houses being built. They still didn`t answer the question of how or where the occupants would earn their living though! |
| noel | And further to the population explosion, are we being fair to the next generations allowing this small island to become overpopulated by allowing so many immigrants in? I don't think we are, but maybe I'm a racist in some people's eyes.
I just don't want to see our country ruined any more than it is. |
| Caroline | It's probably the children (my children, e.g., ) of the Baby Boomers born after the war ( me, 1947), setting up home, but that still doesn't answer ' where do they all work?? Which is what I also wonder when I see new housing developments. |
| Bill Rigby | Noel. no matter where you are there are always those who fear the 'foreigner' and immigration. It was ever thus, yet we are all the result of migrations over generation after generation. In this vast country of the United States founded on immigration at the expense of the prior immigrants - known incorrectly as 'native Americans' since they all came from Asia across the Bering straits landbridge - there are vehement and rabid anti-immigrationists who use all kinds of fear and scare stories to induce others to ban immigration.
Immigrants only emigrate to better their lives; if we spent more on developing the areas where the immigrants come from, instead of per Bush spending untold billions on WMDs (while telling everyone else not to be so wicked as to even think of WMDs!) then it could be halted at source. And probably cut the rug from under 'terrorism, as well.
However, I do agree that we , i.e the planet. has an over population problem. Something needs to be done, but as long as we have bozo presidents like Bush who threatens and indeed stops aid to countries where birth control and legal abortion is permitted - as wells as those who promote contraception - we shall probably all die in a few generations from too many and too much pollution. The warning is out about global warming, but again the bozo refuses to acknowledge the fact and take action; he prfers having Arabs slaughtered under the euphemism 'regime change'. Gimme a break! |
| noel | What particularly bothers me though is United Kingdom is a small island heavily populated. The rate of increase of population is an exponential thing , the more people on the island the greater the increase of population.
When you fly from Greece on a night flight it hits home. As you cross over Greece, Yugoslavia/Italy, and contental europe, the night lights are well scattered and not very dense.
As you fly over England, once you pass The Medway the lights shoot out at you, they are so densely packed. There isn't a lot of unlit surface on view.
Already houses are being built with 3 storeys to maximise land usage.
The Chinese limit families to 2 children. I'm not advocating this but maybe we should be less generous rewarding young girls with tax credits for producing babies.
And maybe we should be less prepared to welcome those who promulgate the virtues of Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. |
| noel | Jobs, Caroline? Let's see the major employers must be Tesco/Sainsbury's and Schwan Pizzas. ASDA at Clayton, Matalan, B&Q, then there are the numerous small inustrial estates where manufacturing takes place. My own employer employs about 200 people. Leyland Motors that was, emply about 900 I think.
So there is some manufacturing but supermarkets and food are the main employers. |
| Bill Rigby | Now if you flew over northern Europe, Noel, you would see lights in equal density to the UK in Belgium, the Netherlands and northern Germany. A 'visual' argument simply is unscientific and untenable. The Netherlands has the highest density of population in Europe and ranks well up there on a world scale.
I you go to the Scotalnd, particularly the highlands, you will see vast tacts of land unoccupied by humans since the Highland Clearances, part of whose raison d'etre was overpopulation!
What is exactly your fear? If it is overpopulation, then it needs tackling on a world basis, not by anti-immigrant phobia.
The Chinese limit is one child, not two. If you imagine, as some conservatives apparently do, that helping unmarried mothers is an encouragement to propagate, you have lost touch with human nature and are beginning to lose humaneness! Help to the starving Irish in western Ireland in the 1840's was opposed by many, including "The Economist", as encouraging indigence. Your argument is of the same caliber, sorry to say.
How do you propose to "be less prepared to welcome" those who, as you put it, promulgate the virtues of Bin Laden? Thought control? Grilling on Guantanamo in a cage? Or perhaps you are one of those with the motto of US Special Forces "Kill 'em all and ask questions after"?
As I have attempted to point out, we are all immigrants, wherever we are. The Celts came from beyond the Danube, the English came from Friesland and northern Germany, with (like my maternal family) a large admixture of Scandinavian, and then a large dose of Norman. From the 18th century, the British sent their miserable, their poor and what was considred the 'criminal class' to Canada, Australia and before slavery, the Irish, to work the sugar plantations in the Caribbean.
All I am trying to point out is that ranting against immigration and migrants accomplishes nothing and is anti-historical. The Brits had no hesitation in occupying India and sending large populations to run the country; you cannot use the excuse that India is bigger!
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| Spitfire | Bill , Having just read your reply to Noels post, I thought I had better go back in the messages to discover what he`d said in order for you to sound off like that. I cannot argue with anything he wrote and quite frankly I couldn`t see anything that was remotely worthy of the `ranting` lable. Perhaps you need to live in these islands at the present time in order to see the value and relevence of what he said.
Sorry to stick my oar in, but that`s what these forums are all about, I believe. |
| noel | Thanks for that support Jim. Bill, you really need to live over here to understand what we feel and why we feel it.
Living in a country of 150 million with an area of 3000 miles by 5,000 miles and comparing it to our crowded country of 1000 approx by 150-200 ( a wild guess but not far off I would imagine) with a population of 59 million you can well afford to sit back and say what's the problem.
You quote Scotland. Half of Scotland is uninhabitable. What do you expext people to do go and live on Stobb Coire Nan Lochan or Bidean Nam Bean? They are mountains for heaven's sake.
Why should we wait for our small island to become as densely populated as Holland. We should be taking steps now before it's too late.
This country takes more than it's fair share of immigrants because of our benefit system. Why else do you suppose they don't aim for France where it's much warmer,and much less populated.
There is no other reason.
It's so obvious we shouldn't even be debating it. |
| Bill Rigby | First, Noel, I did not call your post a 'rant' as Spitfire seems to think! I was referring to the people that have a bee in their bonnet about immigration as if no ther political topic existed! I did not regard your post as a rant, but I still disagree and do not accept the cop out 'if you lived here...' Sorry, Noel, but you are also wrong about the reasons why Britain seems to be a target and not France. The fact is France had a North African population of over a million more than two decades ago and even a decade ago there were suburbs of Paris that resembled Africa more than Europe! All these immigrants, illegal and legal, come from Francophone countries. The ones that head to the UK are English speakers, and as I heard one of them say on a TV program about the issue, "What would I want to stay in France for? They don't speal English!"
The generosity which Anglo-Saxons attribute to themselves is largely mythical - the average American thinks the US gives most aid of any nation, but in fact it contributes less than 1% of GDP compared to France's 3.4%, Britain's 1.8% and most EU countries between 1.5 and more than 5% (I can look it up in The Economist handbook should anyone want!) In the same way, the Brits have the impression they give more than anyone else to immigrants without knowing what other countries in the EU actually offer. The "foreign" press of the awful Rupert and Conrad Black - you know the papers - are usually full of misinformation and exaggeration about the EU and immigration anyway.
The 'uninhabitable' part of Scotland once supported a reasonable if not dense population until the Clearances. I live in a desert, which is far more "uninhabitable" theoretically than any part of Scotland!
Remember Enoch Powell and his ranting (I use the word advisedly because in this case it fits!) about the impending 'bloodbath' and the dire effects of 'uncontrolled' immigration? 'Twas over 30 years ago and it still ain't happened! Sorry, but the developed world is multicultural today and there is zilch one can do about it other than attend to the remedy I suggested; fund developing countries to the same tune 'defense' is funded to ease the causes of immigration and it will diminish over the long term. Just as we are too stupid to do anything to counteract global warming, preferring to suffocate with a fistful of dollars, so we are too stupid to get at the roots of immigration, preferring to seek legal limitations and other coercive measures. |
| steve.w | i have to agree with bill here. we need to be very clear what we are defining the problem as. As i understand it the thread began about the loss of green space as all the new build took over both green spaces, and former industrial sites. I have much sympathy with this arguement, but it is certainly not unique to leyland, lancashire or the north. I travel the country a great deal and have most recently lived in north derbyshire and currently reside in Liverpool. Both this places are going through exactly the same process re new build. Indeed in liverpool a petrol station close to my home recently closed down ( you know the scenario- new supermarket opens with petrol station and eventually every small retailer in the area collapses). Anyway on the site of the small local petrol stattion they are cirrently constructing EIGHT new 'houses'. EIGHT jesus it was only a four pump petrol station !!!!!. The ammount of new property being build is really scary and too much green space is dissappearing. The demand for housing is now huge. When the tories decided to sell off council housing, and since governemnet refuses to invest in social housing there is no cheap affordable housing for working pople. so everyone is forced to own rather than rent - hence the demand, hence the massive debt everyone is getting into, hence the the high number of repossessions a few years back ( and get ready for another wave of these when the interest rates go up again and everyone starts feeling the sting.
HOWEVER. how on earth this is anything to do with immigration is beyond me. The xenphhobia over immigration in the UK is the result of media scare stories and ill informed people making wild allegations based on myths and lies.
Most asylum seekers end up in their poor neighbouring countries ( if you are going to flee where are you most likely to go? Next door that’s where.) it is other struggling developing countries that bear most of the asylum seekers (72% of asylum seekers end up in developing countries). Even within the EU the UK is ranked 10th in terms of asylum applications.
There is no ‘trojan horse’. As an englishman I am proud that my country is able to offer some kind of sancturary to those less fortumate than myself. I am glad that some woman who has been raped by the soldiers in somalia finds at least some peace in my country. I am pleased that some children may grow up with repression and death as they reside in the UK.
This trojan horse thing needs nailing. If you consider global refugee and asylum seeking poppulations in relation to the host countries size, popultion and wealth the Uk ranks 32nd !!!. Taking the greatest burden are Iran, Burundi and Guinea.
And you may be interested to know that an asylum seeker in the UK is not allowed access to any mainstream benefits and a single adult survives on 37.77 a week – 30% below the poverty line.
So as you can see they are hardly a burden, and hardly responsible for the loss of green sites around leyland or anywhere else.
As a member of a western civilised I am appalled that we can stand and wave as bush and blair squander millions on a war for oil whilst a significant population of our world struggles for survival. Lets have a debate about the loss of green space, or the loss of worthwhile employment, or the increasing burden of debt and insecurity that working people live with – but lets be clear who is to blame about these things. Lets think it out clearly and rationally. Lets have some dignity and compassion. And lets not go blaming those who are easy targets. The vulnerable and disspossessed, the poor and downtrodden. There may well be people to blame for the way things are – but I think some people in this thread are looking in the wrong place.
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| Caroline | I heard around 20,00 Brits moved to France last year! That should free up a bit of space!
I'm an economic migrant in France, and would not have left my own country except in desperation- due to the impending repossession of my house after several extremely difficult years as a single parent, and job losses after government education cuts ( 1990-93). I've been extremely well received here, but I'm under no illusion that a white skin hasn't helped, and I pity anyone else less fortunate than myself in the same position anywhere. |
| noel | UK population has grown nearly 20 per cent since 1950. There were an estimated 59,206,700 people living in the UK in mid-2002 and numbers are still rising. UK population grew by 236,800 in 2001, the equivalent of one large city in just one year. At the 2001 growth rate of 0.4% (natural increase plus net migration) our population would reach 63 million by 2020 and 71 million by 2050. Revised 2001 Census figures and mid-year population estimates for mid-2002 were published in September 2003, showing an estimated 176,100 (0.3%) increase in population from mid-2001 to mid-2002, but full underlying birth, death and migration statistics are not yet available. Census recounts in London, Manchester and other areas have also revealed population underestimates. Notes: Illegal immigration cannot be fully counted.
For every woman raped by soldiers in somalia there is a miscreant who doesn't deserve to be in this country. I will say no more on this subject.
WRT the loss of land, why, if the poulation has only increased by 20% in 50 years is the land being gobbled up so quickly by developers , when brown field sites eg L&B, ROF are alos adding to the availability of building land. It does not make sense.!!!
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| rocketmanjohn | Immigration and political asylum rights are a noble and thoughtful way of running a country, but when is someone going to say it, England is just about full, it can't go on indefinately. People complain about losing the green belt and yet want to welcome all and sundry. Living space is finite and is rapidly running out, the roads are at the point of gridlock and can't accomodate any more. Something has to give, the population can't keep growing at the present rate, I know its an awful thing to say, but families will have to be limited. Has anyone any other ideas? I know my thoughts will be unpopular, but what other alternative is there? It can't go on the way it is right now for much longer, the whole system will surely collapse. Please don't ostracize me for these comments, but there must be limits to what a country can do.
John |
| steve.w | “For every woman raped by soldiers in somalia there is a miscreant who doesn't deserve to be in this country.” - could you explain why they don’t deserve to be in this country? Many of those who come to this country offer us a great deal. Not only culturally but also economically. With the shortage in labour in the late 1950’s we were quick enough to call on people from other countries to come and work here. But as the economy turned we suddenly started the back lash and blamed them for the lack of jobs for the indiginous population – talk about wanting your cake and eating it. We rely heavily on foreign labour (23% of doctors and 47% of nurses working in the NHS were born outside the UK). Now you might want to have a discussion about why we are having to depend on foreign labour and the inadequcies of our own nations ability to produce a workforce willing to take these jobs – but remember that these people come to fill a gap – not to take jobs that would be filled by the indiginous population. I am unsure what constitutes a ‘miscreant who doesn’t deserve to be in this country’ if it is someone who is willing to sponge of the state, who is ill informed, ill educated and refuses to take work then again I think we mayneed to examne our own indiginous population a little closer. As someone who works in two of the most deprived wards in the UK, and meets regularly with asylum seekers and refugees I know who I think offers the most to the economic and cultural develeopment of this green and pleasant land. According to the home office migrants, including asylum seekers and refugees, far from being a burden on the UK tax payer – they made a net fiscal contribution of approximatly £2.5BILLION (worth 1p on income tax).
Most asylum seekers would much rather work than be supported, but the governement wont let them. A practical example, our corner shop was owned and run by a local white couple for 10 yrs, two years ago they sold it. Anyone could have bought it, it was a sri lankan family that did so. It has now gone from 5 and a half day 8-6 opening to 7 days 7-10 opening. They have doubled the physical size of the shop and now sell alcohol, a wide range of fruit, veg and food, magazines etc. They have improved provision in the neighbourhood greatly and the shop s still heaviy used by the local community ( who children ironically still throw bricks egg and fireworks into the shop and scream/ spray paki scum on the windows and walls of the shop.
They are a good example of what migrants can bring to a community. Unlike all those ex pat communities – the classic being spain. Where the brits buy their second homes, refuse to take any time out to understand local language, tradition and culture and take asylum in their ‘little england’ mentally.
Anyway things will change again – the bosses ( with profit as ever being their mantra) are sick of the english working class and their unreasonable demands for a living wage. So they are going to strat to out source work. BT train enquiries will be dealt with by a call centre in india, general solicitors stuff will be routed to south africa solictors who will be paid a fee for dealing with the mundane stuff. No doubt many will blame the indian and south african people for taking their jobs, without realising that it is the bosses who will go anywhere for a bigger profit who are to blame.
“England is just about full” - where in england is just about full? There are some countries that are full but I hardly think the UK is one of them. As for the roads being grid locked – this is not due to over population – is about changes in the economy and work practises its about people having to travel long distances for employment – where before you had strong local industry ( most of my class went to work at leyland motors very few had to travel much further than a bike ride ( how different is that now). Its about poor public transport due to n unwilligness to invest in it and about a willful ignorance and sucking up to the motor industry despite the damage we know that the car is doing to the environment.
At the end of the day its about money, about the accumulation of wealth and the greed of the bosses. Maybe we should try to look more carefully at who is to blame. All this stuff about being over run is what they want you to be thinking – its WMD – a weapon of mass dstraction.
steve |
| noel | Bill, I have neither the time to reply to all posts, nor the inclination. My wife is currently indisposed having had an operation on both feet and I as a result am running the house-hold chores as well as holding down a full time job.
Your left wing views are well known by now and would be, no question, a minority view over here. The problem is that you don’t want debate, you just want to prattle out your rigid views content in the knowledge that anyone who disagrees is wrong. My views in this country are quite commonly held ones. The fact that the press report failings in the asylum system, ( for Steve’s benefit) is for the good of the country.
The press are the watch-dogs and the mouth-piece for millions of us who are unhappy at seeing the disproportionate increase in asylum seekers. This is a small over populated island . I want my grandchildren and their grandchildren to live in a green land, free of conflict, not afraid of The Trojan Horse Syndrome as Steve put it.
Even the Labour government accept that the rules on asylum need tightening. Tony Blair has pledged to half the numbers of asylum seekers . It’s a very touchy subject and not one I really want to get bogged down with. I would love to be able to welcome the world and it’s problems to this island if only we could solve them. But with a report out today showing that a third of our own children are living in poverty, I think we should sort our own problems out first.
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| steve.w | Noel, I am sorry to here about your wife operation – I sincerley hope that all went well and wish her a speedy recovery and a return to good health. Just because I disagree with someones views does not mean that I do not wish them health and happiness.
I don’t know whether I would charactarise Bills views as ‘left wing’ – he seems to have more of a ‘humanist’ approach to his understanding of the world. I do agree that his views would be a minority view point over here [ I am only a few miles down the road in liverpool]. Personally I have no problem what so ever with my own views being characterised as ‘left wing’ I want to see a world that is free from hunger, poverty and war. I want to live in a world where we all have an equal share and an equal say in the world which we were born equally into. If that makes me some ‘left winger’ so be it.
Also I don’t see anything rigid in what bill has said – he offers facts, a life experience from various parts of the globe and a well thought through point of view – I would suggest that this is far from rigid.
Noel I agree your views are quite commonly held ones – but does that necessarily make them any more valid or correct than those that others hold. Nelson Mandela was stereotyped as a terrorist in a minority cell and imprisoned for years but he continued to have his voice and his cause heard and effected change and went on to be President and statesman of his country. Being of a minority view doesn’t mean you are wrong per se. It just means that you are in the minority.
Regarding the press reporting of asylum seekers I think it depends on which press you read. You also need to consider who owns the press and in whose interests they are reporting. There have been cases were the press have printed lies as truths and myths as facts – the problem is that the withdrawl or apology usually takes up a few tiny column inches whereas the allegation will have been front page news. Anyone remember the BBC editing the footage of the Miners Strike at Orgreave in the 80’s so that it looked like the Miners had attatcked the police when in actual FACT it had been the other way round.
The press are the watch dogs and mouth piece of murdoch and the ruling class – as I said in an earlier post I suggest we look at some facts before casting aspirations. Further I would suggest that talking to asylum seekers and refugees, treating them as people with a voice to be heard and a story to be told would offer a valuable insight.
Now this
‘But with a report out today showing that a third of our own children are living in poverty, I think we should sort our own problems out first.”
I can agree with. The level of poverty in the UK is a disgrace in a so called civilised society. So lets have a look at the distribution of wealth – for it is lack of finance that causes poverty. I havent got the up to date figure ( but I will be back with it for sure!). but it should be noted that not too long ago 7% of this nations population owned 84% of its wealth. Think about it. That means the rest of us (93%) are trying to share out 16% of the wealth between us.
The answer seems plain and simple, old fashioned and left wing even. But they have the wealth and we don’t, and until we do something about it we will continue to fight over the crumbs from their table. Life my seem very complex, but when it come to poverty its simple. Haves and have nots. And therein lies the solution. Lets end wealth inequality. Lets look after our own first if you want. Lets rob the white rich ruling class of the wealth. Theres plenty to go around, and I am convinced once we have it we will be a lot less likely to be blaming other poor people for making us poor.
Yours truly,
The left wing ragged trousered philanthropist.
steve
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